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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 26th Feb 2019, 23:01
  #5401 (permalink)  
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I'm rather afraid to say that Britain can no longer claim to be a parliamentary democracy.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 00:59
  #5402 (permalink)  
 
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It seems like three possible outcomes are currently up for debate, leave with Theresa May's deal - which is not really leaving at all, seeking an extension to Article 50 - which is not really leaving, and leaving the EU on the 29th of March without a deal.

The referendum result was to leave the EU. MPs from both the main parties were elected on the basis that they supported leaving the EU. Individual MPs may have their own opinions on the matter, but the fact is that both Labour and the Conservatives supported leaving the EU in their respective manifestos.

Which of the above three options is the only one that satisfies the promise made to the electorate?

Politicians of all parties need to realise that should they betray the trust placed in them by the electorate, there will be serious consequences across the whole of society. If politicians fail to deliver on Brexit then the general public will quite likely lose all faith in politicians and democratic procedure. Why bother paying taxes or obeying any laws? Clearly if sufficient people turn their backs on the political process we have the beginnings of a complete breakdown of society.

Perhaps a more pertinent question is who has the most to gain through attempts to sabotage Brexit and the potential for civil disorder and the rise of extremism?
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 05:13
  #5403 (permalink)  
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When reaching out to the electorate, it's essential to know your target audience......so what better rag than the Mail to ensure the hearts and minds of Little / Middle Hingland are suitably stirred and impassioned when Treeza needs their unwavering support......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-47380721


However, for those whose diet is dependent on imported exotic fruits, organic produce and shopping at certain upmarket outlets, .....bad news !......time to start clearing the conservatory for storage before the looting commences and the rabble hoards descend to strip the shelves bare.

The serious bit is , that, the concerns outlined demonstrate how perilous the UK's overall situation will become. and that any increase in prices or reduction in supplies is going to have a serious impact on many low paid households......along with those who felt they were safe until fiscal reality starts to affect their already stretched domestic budgets.

There's also a podcast in today's Guardian, sorry I can't provide a link, that suggests a certain group in the Tories are a "party within a party "....thus giving credence to the unlamented deceased and her infamous "the enemy within " statement........nothing like political irony at times. .

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...overnment-says
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 06:37
  #5404 (permalink)  
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Gouli, it doesn't work quite like that.

Look at a simple example.

​​​​​After the arrest of a brutal mass murderer with no doubt about guilt, there is a public outcry for the death penalty. One party puts the restoration of the death penalty in its manifesto. It is elected with a large majority.

A bill is proposed but after debate in both houses it is rejected by our representatives. That is representative democracy. We might disagree. The alternative is a referendum for everything.​​​
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 06:46
  #5405 (permalink)  
 
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1billion pounds worth of investment in the UK announced.

Forties pipeline refurb being a good chunk of it.

Plus a plant in Hull.

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Old 27th Feb 2019, 06:50
  #5406 (permalink)  
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https://www.politico.eu/article/poll...ts-short-deal/

Public backs Brexit extension — but only if it’s short

LONDON — U.K. voters support a delay to Brexit, but only if it lasts no longer than three months, according to an exclusive POLITICO-Hanbury poll published ahead of a crucial showdown in the British parliament over the next steps in the Brexit process.

While voters remain skeptical about the intention behind any delay, overall they support pushing back Brexit day (with 47 percent in favor to 26 percent opposed) if it is needed to continue the exit negotiations or to ratify the deal. But support for an extension lasting any longer than three months drops dramatically, according to the survey of 2,006 adults........

According to the poll, 47 percent of respondents support or strongly support an extension of the Article 50 negotiating period, compared with 26 percent who oppose or strongly oppose such a delay. But to maintain public support, any extension must be short. Forty-seven percent say a one month extension would be acceptable, compared with 32 percent who say it would not. This falls to 42 percent support for a three-month extension, compared with 40 percent who are opposed.

Conservative Party voters who backed Brexit in the referendum are strongly opposed to an extension though, with 51 percent opposed and 33 percent in favor. Twenty percent would find it acceptable to extend Article 50 in order to hold a second referendum or a general election, compared with 74 percent that find this unacceptable. And 27 percent would find it acceptable to extend Article 50 to prevent no-deal, compared with 63 percent who say that would be unacceptable......

Any extension that lasts longer than three months is seen as unacceptable. Just a third of voters — 33 percent — find a six-month extension acceptable, compared with 48 percent who say it would not be. Even fewer — 23 percent — say they would find a two-year extension acceptable, compared with 60 percent who say it is unacceptable......
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:09
  #5407 (permalink)  
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Meanwhile, in Labour antisemitism land, I understand the party might “reprimand” Williamson.

I would have thought withdrawing the whip pending expulsion a more fitting punishment.

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-presented-by-the-boeing-company-were-gonna-need-a-longer-road-exclusive-brexit-poll-vote-night-is-on/

LABOUR LAND

OH DEAR: Away from Brexit, Twitter is going wild for a https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/chris-williamson-labour-has-been-too-apologetic-about-anti-semitism-1-9618191 last night from the Yorkshire Post’s new Westminster correspondent Liz Bates, who got her hands on a video of Corbynista MP Chris Williamson addressing a Momentum rally in Sheffield. In the clip (
) Williamson says Labour has been “too apologetic” about anti-Semitism, and “given too much ground” on the issue — to which the audience bursts into applause.
he laughingly recounts how he sang “Celebration” by Kool and the Gang outside then-Labour MP Joan Ryan’s office when she quit the Labour Party last week. Ryan was previously chairwoman of Labour Friends of Israel. This time the audience roars with laughter … It’s not exactly a great look for the party.

And there’s more: It came only hours after Williamson was slapped down by party officials for planning to screen a film in parliament defending Jackie Walker, the Momentum activist suspended from Labour over comments about anti-Semitism. The Guardian has the story.

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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:20
  #5408 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
Politicians of all parties need to realise that should they betray the trust placed in them by the electorate, there will be serious consequences across the whole of society. If politicians fail to deliver on Brexit then the general public will quite likely lose all faith in politicians and democratic procedure. Why bother paying taxes or obeying any laws? Clearly if sufficient people turn their backs on the political process we have the beginnings of a complete breakdown of society.

Perhaps a more pertinent question is who has the most to gain through attempts to sabotage Brexit and the potential for civil disorder and the rise of extremism?



Problem is you are displaying the same tendencies as displayed by our dear Prime Minister, ever since the red lines speech:

Pandering 100% to the roughly 17.4 million who voted for an unspecified form of Leave, then (in TM’s case e) in the HoC pandering to a handful of DUP MPs and a couple of score of the ERG, whilst OTOH completely and utterly ignoring and failing to try to find any common ground with the 16.1 million U.K. voters who voted to teamin..and FWIW the X million who expressed no preference. They seem have become “non people” as far as some Brexiters are concerned, people to be completely ignored.

Worse still in TMs case, in her typical clod hopping way, she then starts chucking labels around such as “Citizens of nowhere”. and “ queue jumpers” which certainly sticks in the throat of many expats who aren’t sat in Benidorm drinking beer, or even in a pub in the U.K. for that matter, drawing their U.K. pension, they are instead working, in many cases for U.K. based companies, and in quite a few cases still paying U.K. Tax , and U.K. NI, so atill actively contributing to the U.K. economy...though of course many of those are now disenfranchised because of the 15 year rule - what’s that word you are fond of? Oh yes, “democracy.”...

You shouldn’t be suprised that that are many in the U.K. and many U.K. citizens who are not prepared to quietly follow TM off the edge off a cliff....I hope you are not claiming opposition to the Government =extremism....








Last edited by wiggy; 27th Feb 2019 at 07:39.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:27
  #5409 (permalink)  
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One more, in an occasional series, of non JB Brexit related but pertinent to other political matters in the UK.

Nice to see Dave, George and Treeza taking the report to heart ( as gushed to the electorate ) whilst happily negating the contents thereafter.

We await the usual howls of anguish concerning the proposal to increase taxes on the poor souls whose lifestyles would be shattered by such draconian action....


https://www.theguardian.com/inequali...ty-says-expert
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:32
  #5410 (permalink)  
 
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I am really quite surprised that the Cooper-Letwin amendment has been pulled this week. If we have learnt anything about Theresa May over the past 4 months it is that she cannot be trusted, and has broken her word with regard to parliamentary votes on numerable occasions. To trust her to go through with what she said yesterday appears to me like a leap of blind faith.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 07:35
  #5411 (permalink)  
 
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3 month extension is going to screw the EU up more than the UK. It's going to be smack in the middle of the EU elections.

Can't see much point to it to be honest. They could say UK is out unconditionally but the status quo will be maintained for 3 months. But there is no way that the UK can reverse leaving. It would have to reapply.

At least it would remove the doubt of if it is or isn't going to happen. So that excuse for fannying around would be gone.

I suspect the EU will only agree to an extension which then falls at the end of its financial year at the year end which is why 21 months is touted. Don't under estimate the benefit to the UK for coming out at the end of the financial year on the 29th

Last edited by tescoapp; 27th Feb 2019 at 08:00.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 08:16
  #5412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
3 month extension is going to screw the EU up more than the UK. It's going to be smack in the middle of the EU elections.

Can't see much point to it to be honest. They could say UK is out unconditionally but the status quo will be maintained for 3 months. But there is no way that the UK can reverse leaving. It would have to reapply.

At least it would remove the doubt of if it is or isn't going to happen. So that excuse for fannying around would be gone.

I suspect the EU will only agree to an extension which then falls at the end of its financial year at the year end which is why 21 months is touted. Don't under estimate the benefit to the UK for coming out at the end of the financial year on the 29th
No, I agree, a 3 month delay would achieve nothing, unless HMG is going to blur some of it's red lines and negotiate seriously in that period. Of course that might happen. Otherwise, as Ken Clarke said in the Commons yesterday, all a three month delay would just be a continuation of the pantomime, and more can kicking by Theresa May and her cohorts.

If, as is likely, the vote on 12th March goes against the government, and the subsequent vote goes against no deal, then an extension is inevitable. At the end of that extension a very difficult decision will have to be made by MPs, no deal, or no Brexit. Since, I imagine, they still won't want no deal, and it could cause a potential social and political earthquake for them to vote to cancel Art. 50, the next logical move would be a further, probably 9 month extension, for a referendum on "leave" under that TM / EU agreement, or "Remain". That would be the least worst outcome politically, and it wouldn't be a betrayal of democracy, except in the eyes of hardline Brexiteers. It would however leave businesses in limbo for another year, which would do no good for the economy, or the well being of the population. But then that has been the result of the 2016 exercise already.



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Old 27th Feb 2019, 08:32
  #5413 (permalink)  
 
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Just because an extension is voted for in the commons does not mean it has to be granted by the EU.

If it's at that stage then they can ask for anything they like as a condition. The price may be impossible and would require a further vote in parliament to approve it. Then the leaving law would need repealed or amended. All in the space of 10 days.

​​​​​​So the delay is not law until it goes through the lord's and house again and by that point the UK is out anyway. It smacks of her trying to bully her deal through on a bluff knowing fine that even if the house does vote for a delay it won't be possible to enforce it until after default exit anyway.

Mean while corybn is timing his next vote of no confidence.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 08:38
  #5414 (permalink)  
 
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Just because an extension is voted for in the commons does not mean it has to be granted by the EU.
Indeed, and that is something that seems to pass UK politicians, and for that matter the UK media by. We (the UK) is inclined to behave as though we should get what we want, because we want it, not because it is reasonable, irrespective of whether it suits the other party. this is indicative of a mindset that goes back to the days of empire, and one that i hope Brexit finally kills off.

That said, Donald Tusk himself has said publicly that an extension is a natural next move if time runs out, and it seems there are few, except perhaps Mark Rutter, who are against the idea.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 08:42
  #5415 (permalink)  
 
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Rees-Mogg was on the Today programme earlier remarking that he is no longer so hostile to the backstop. I love the comment in the Guardian’s daily running commentary: “You could tell he was engaged in a U-turn because he started talking in Latin to obscure what he was up to.”

This is what he said
I can live with the de facto removal of the backstop, even if it isn’t de jure. What do I mean by that? I mean that if there is a clear date that says the backstop ends, and that that is in the text of the treaty, or equivalent to the text of the treaty - if it were to be an appendix to the treaty; bear in mind, the Irish backstop is in itself an appendix to the treaty. So if you had a further appendix that said, ‘This will not go beyond a particular date’, and a short date, not a long date, then that would remove the backstop in the lifetime of parliament. That would have a reasonable effect from my point of view ...

A changed deal is a changed deal. Of course, I would be open to considering that.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 08:54
  #5416 (permalink)  
 
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Tusk is only interested in a 21 month extension which point he will be pulling his pension.

And he hasn't stated what they would want in return. I suspect 41 billion and a blank cheque for later if it's not enough.

A backstop with an end date is unacceptable to the EU so he is on safe ground.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 09:02
  #5417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post

No plan required just give an opinion without insults.
He / She often uses the insult of ' gammon ' for anyone with a different opinion than himself / herself.

I console myself with the thought that with 17,410,742 people having a different opinion to him / her, he / she must have been more aubergine than gammon that particular night,



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Old 27th Feb 2019, 09:04
  #5418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
It seems like three possible outcomes are currently up for debate, leave with Theresa May's deal - which is not really leaving at all, seeking an extension to Article 50 - which is not really leaving, and leaving the EU on the 29th of March without a deal.

The referendum result was to leave the EU. MPs from both the main parties were elected on the basis that they supported leaving the EU. Individual MPs may have their own opinions on the matter, but the fact is that both Labour and the Conservatives supported leaving the EU in their respective manifestos.

Which of the above three options is the only one that satisfies the promise made to the electorate?

Politicians of all parties need to realise that should they betray the trust placed in them by the electorate, there will be serious consequences across the whole of society. If politicians fail to deliver on Brexit then the general public will quite likely lose all faith in politicians and democratic procedure. Why bother paying taxes or obeying any laws? Clearly if sufficient people turn their backs on the political process we have the beginnings of a complete breakdown of society.

Perhaps a more pertinent question is who has the most to gain through attempts to sabotage Brexit and the potential for civil disorder and the rise of extremism?
I don't believe that anybody who voted to leave voted to be worse off, both individually and as a country.
You can be absolutely sure that a no deal brexit will result in that.

And so of the three options you identify only the WA satisfies vote as hardly anyone who voted to leave understood that Irish border issue.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 09:13
  #5419 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
He / She often uses the insult of ' gammon ' for anyone with a different opinion than himself / herself.

I console myself with the thought that with 17,410,742 people having a different opinion to him / her, he / she must have been more aubergine than gammon that particular night,
1) He.
2) Factually incorrect.
3) 16,141,241 agreed with me, so excluding unaccounted for sources of finance on the leave side & several convictions & ongoing NCA investigations, I'd be thinking twice about crowing over the 'victory'.
4) You don't even live here, which makes you the perfect Brexit supporter in so many ways.
5) Where is your post condemning Harley Quinn for calling me a 'nonce'?
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 09:43
  #5420 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post

1) He.
2) Factually incorrect.
3) 16,141,241 agreed with me, so excluding unaccounted for sources of finance on the leave side & several convictions & ongoing NCA investigations, I'd be thinking twice about crowing over the 'victory'.
4) You don't even live here, which makes you the perfect Brexit supporter in so many ways

5) Where is your post condemning Harley Quinn for calling me a 'nonce'?

What is factually incorrect ?

I'm not crowing over the Referendum result, just a suggestion of how the result that night and subsequent unaccounted for sources of finance on the leave side & several convictions & ongoing NCA investigations might explain your demeanour....

If you had read my posts the past ten years or so, you'd know I am not a BREXIT supporter....I am, however, one of the many millions who want an end to the EU and a return to a simple Free Trade Area for Europe. We all hoped the UK would succeed in showing that anyone can stand up to and leave a Protection Racket if they're brave enough, although it now seems we're going to see yet another re-run of the way the EU and its fanatical, political supporters p*ss on democracy.

If Harley Quin knew the meaning of what he said, then not good....But I must admit that I've never heard the word before and had to Google, or maybe it's because it's a common insult to use in English that I hadn't picked up on....



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