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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 18th Nov 2018, 13:54
  #461 (permalink)  
 
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Totally agree with you in your assessment of the Labour leadership position. They are in the relatively easy position of being able to say, We need a better deal' without having to actually negotiate it.

That may well be the position of the Labour leadership but I hope and suspect that many on the back benches may be a bit more realistic.

The 'meaningful' vote might be ineresinter.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 14:46
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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Mrs Thatcher with her many sins and a few talents would never ever in million years have been stupid enough to have let the country get in this position. Only the Brits think that if you have a tough negotiator they can get out of untenable positions but these days God is firmly on the side of the big battalions and at the end of the day we need the Eu very very much more than they need us.

that doesn't mean giving in on every point but ti does mean being realistic.
the whole thing is our fault as a country and frankly the Eu have been very reasonable except they could be abit more flexible over Ireland. But even then from day one it was massive obstacle and no one it seems really recognised.

Mrs May , who hasn't overall done a bad job in appalling circumstances should never have done a deal with the Ulster KKK or DUP whatever they are called and compromised her position over it. Tail wagging the dog to huge degree.

Lets have a second referendum-why not the Tories are having a rethink of their own position with no regard at all for whats right for the country.

Better yet stay in the Eu and prosecute Boris, Rees Mogg and company for misconduct-ie lying- in public office. Shame we can't execute them as traitors because thats what they really are putting their personal interests above the country in time of conflict-or exile them to St Helena or the Falklands where they can play at being 19th century politicians to their hearts content.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 15:12
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
OK. But the question is did the UK Negotiators really put up a fight. It was reasonable to expect that as a minimum yet according to D Raab, and he clearly knows far more than the rest of us, we effectively let them make it a walkover.

I should not look back but I can't help wondering what Mrs Thatcher would have done were she in Mrs May position.

Using your boxing analogy the EU would have been taken the distance and finished with two black eyes. I also doubt she would have appointed David Davis to lead the negotiation team....
Trouble is straight off the bat it was the UK going to them and not the other way around which gave them the high home ground. You then appear to have the UK making the proposals with the EU in the controlling seat, it all puts us on the back foot, I would have preferred to see more of this is what we propose and a take it or leave it approach, putting the pressure on the EU to bring realistic suggestions to the table.
No wonder they are in such a rush to call an emergency meeting to pass it, they have got everything the wanted including a whacking great payout and we have got nothing.

Mays statement today re it's my way or the highway approach to Brexit smacks of panic on her behalf in an attempt to cling onto power.
Corbyn on the other hand showed his true colours again, we don't need a second referendum, but we will keep it on the table, fence sitting as normal and doing nought in the countries interest.

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Old 18th Nov 2018, 15:38
  #464 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
The comments on poverty have very little to do with Brexit and are a unneccessary distraction with regard to arguments aboit leaving the EU. By most measures, the UK economy and employment figures have taken an upturn since the announcement of the refe rendum result to leave the EU was made. Guarantees of a minimum income for all citizens have been tried and failed in other countries in the past. There will always be a minority who still fall into poverty and destitution through failures of the system, health issues, or their personal lifestyle choices. Being in or out of the EU is an irrelevance.

More significant is that the EU is attempting to overturn a democratic decision by the UK to leave the EU. The deal on offer would effectively bind the UK to the EU indefinitely and retain what amounts to a veto on all future UK government decisions about seperating further from the EU. On a point of principle, we are now placed in a position where we have to leave without a deal, or face becoming an EU vassal state for ever more.

There will be a degree of disruption to the UK economy when we leave, but consider if the decision was reversed. What will happen with all those corporations that have already set up new head offices in Europe in preparation for Brexit? Are they just going to close everything down and move back to the UK? I suspect that won't be happening. The UK announced its intention to leave the EU in accordance with a democratic vote. The UK must make a clean break from the EU or show up democracy to be a complete fallacy and scam run by financiers and crooked politicians.

Having witnessed the socialising in the House of Commons bars, it is probably apt to point out that no party is in any position to claim a moral high ground.
Ah, you've made a full recovery then. I say this because one post recently differentiated from the well established doctrines you subscribe to and there was almost a glimmer of hope.

However, unfortunate though it may be for you, the issue of poverty is far from being what you term an "unnecessary distraction " because some 14million people don't constitute a minority.

And, whilst it's true that Brexit has been overly prominent the not so inconsequential domestic issues still remain. Why do you think the debacle of Universal Credit was not given the publicity it deserved for example, until, belatedly, this emerged. Equally, what else is being conveniently " ignored" less the public become aware that, in addition to the obsession with Brexit, the Tories are also engaged in policies which are likely to damage further peoples lives.......and we wouldn't that in your vision of Nirvana ( UK ) now would we.

Thus to this piece ....it's classical JB chums and chaps territory really, plus the demographic of course, but, it appears all is not well in the hearts and minds of some of the voters !......shock and awe in a Tory heartland and the fermentation of revolution in the air !.....unlikely I know, but.....

However, despite all the angst, as ever, Middle Hingerlund cometh to the fore with their true concern......yep, the cost of their
houses !...I mean, ones social standing can never be recovered if the pwice has fallen by a few thousand dahling !

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tituency-esher

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 18th Nov 2018 at 15:52.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 16:15
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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"...Rees-Mogg said it would take up to 50 years before any benefits of Brexit could be recognised."

He must be demented to hazard such a prognostication. In 50 years time the World will be very different.

There are many different possible scenarios, most of which are unpleasant.
I don't think things will ever return to pre 2008 levels.... now we face a long slope downhill I agree.... it is NEVER going to get better.... the whole Neo-Liberal ideology is crumbling before our eyes... I genuinely predict civil disobedience in the UK if this continues a few more years or so (granted I'm only predicting this sentiment from what I read before I'm told what do I know...).

As for Rees-Mogg.... this is a genuine story... I once met him in the Oxford (University) Union Bar back in late 1989.... surrounded by his hobnobs... I think he was running for Union office at the time or something (can't recall, wasn't interested) because his name was plastered all over the wall for weeks if not months.... he came across as extremely pleasant... if slightly condescending and a bit batty... nothing seems to have changed!
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 18:36
  #466 (permalink)  
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surrounded by his hobnobs...
Bribing the voters with biscuits?
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 18:47
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Bribing the voters with biscuits?
I really should give up this habit of "making up" words... problem is I am surrounded by non-English speakers so I usually can get away with it.... problem also is I've done it for so long now it's becoming ingrained.... s'pose if I ever returned to blighty I'd be accused of speaking pidgin english + made-up words.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 19:02
  #468 (permalink)  
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Jeremy making his Brexit credentials clear today - and showing the rift in Labour is even greater than that at the top of the Tory party.

The Times:

”Jeremy Corbyn yesterday signalled his intention not to give way to demands from his pary’s pro-European wing warning that a second referendum is “not an option for today”. In a move that will further infuriate Labour MPs calling for a so-called people’s vote Mr Corbyn said he did not even know if he would support remaining in the EU if a second referendum was called.......

Mr Corbyn’s intervention comes amid a concerted campaign by pro-European groups to persuade Labour MPs to back calls for a second referendum. They claim to have whittled down hardcore Labour opponents to a second vote to just 15 MPs while also applying pressure to Mr Corbyn’s union support base and grass roots support group Momentum.

But the Labour leader and his keys aides have, if anything, strengthened their opposition to a second vote......


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Old 18th Nov 2018, 20:09
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Jeremy making his Brexit credentials clear today - and showing the rift in Labour is even greater than that at the top of the Tory party.

The Times:

”Jeremy Corbyn yesterday signalled his intention not to give way to demands from his pary’s pro-European wing warning that a second referendum is “not an option for today”. In a move that will further infuriate Labour MPs calling for a so-called people’s vote Mr Corbyn said he did not even know if he would support remaining in the EU if a second referendum was called.......

Mr Corbyn’s intervention comes amid a concerted campaign by pro-European groups to persuade Labour MPs to back calls for a second referendum. They claim to have whittled down hardcore Labour opponents to a second vote to just 15 MPs while also applying pressure to Mr Corbyn’s union support base and grass roots support group Momentum.

But the Labour leader and his keys aides have, if anything, strengthened their opposition to a second vote......
Given the divisive nature of the issue, Labour have a difficult game to play, on the one hand they can't be seen to isolate a significant minority (or majority) of the population, and on the other by not supporting the government they can gleefully look on and see them self-disintegrate. I bet JC is doing his best to wait it out on the sidelines.

Even the Blairites have shown remarkable restraint by not hijacking the issue.... perhaps they all sense this may be Labours route to power whatever other policies they have... mind you how must they feel about Miss Diane as Home Sec doesn't bear contemplating.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 20:53
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Bribing the voters with biscuits?
Trickledown theory. And the great British people should be jolly grateful I should imagine.

What an ass he is. How people can feel represented by people like this defies belief.
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Old 18th Nov 2018, 21:43
  #471 (permalink)  
 
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Pax, if those who supported brexit should be prosecuted for lying then mrs may will be along side them as she has lied through her teeth with this deal. On several occasions she has made statements in the house saying we will leave the customs union, end free movement and stop paying into the gravy train. Yet the so called deal still retains these 3 key fundamental things as pointed out by JRM in the house. In any negotiation either side has the option to walk away wheras this has been a total surrender without so much as a whimper and that is a very very sad thing. We no longer deserve the word 'GREAT' in our once proud nations name which is especially poingnent when only last week we were commemorating those who gave their lives in ww1 and other wars, to restore democracy, yet this week has seen it be ignored and given up without a fight.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 06:21
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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Will Boris be the next pm?

Surely the Maybot cannot continue after BRexit, and so a new idiot must be put in charge of the asylum?

It seems to me that there's a paucity of viable candidates, and so BoJo may get the job by default.

Personally, I think he'd be a good choice. Reminds me of Reagans' election as PotUS, odd but turned out ok in the end.

Anyone got a better idea? Gove? Corbyn???

Shurely not!
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 06:27
  #473 (permalink)  
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What a thought - The septics led by a man whose surname is an English euphemism for fart, and the British by a man whose surname is an american euphemism for prick. They go well together.

And don't even think about Conshie Corbyn in charge when we are in a state of war.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 06:46
  #474 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by UniFoxOs View Post
What a thought - The septics led by a man whose surname is an English euphemism for fart, and the British by a man whose surname is an american euphemism for prick. They go well together.

And don't even think about Conshie Corbyn in charge when we are in a state of war.
Now I know, that, due to a certain event taking precedence other events may not have quite received the level of publicity they should have, buuuuut, who did you have in mind when it comes to starting a war with the UK please ?........and is this imminent at all because I'm sort of tentatively making plans for next year and getting dressed up in an NBC suit, which never appealed in the first place, isn't included.

As for potential, and imminent, candidates, " Beyond the Fringe " summates the current selection dilemma nicely .....

.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 07:07
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 07:25
  #476 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
I came to that opinion donkeys years ago, you can add self serving, arrogant, and a few other similar descriptions to many of them also, what has been obvious for years is that what their constituents want does not concern most of them, neither does what is best for the country, mind you I apply this to both sides of the current discussion, one assumes you were also.
I can absolutely assure you that I do; and across a range of issues not just Brexit.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 07:43
  #477 (permalink)  
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It seems as though in all of these negotiations, the UK team has been fronted by Ollie Robbins, a civil servant and not, as one might expect, by the Minister for Smooth Brexit. Oliver has been doing the ordering and that might be part of the reason why there have been so many Ministers for Brexit now redundant.
When he was at Oxford, Robbins was president of the Oxford Reform Club, a group dedicated to a federal European union. There seems to be no reason for thinking that his particular political bias has changed. I find it surprising that the press discusses Teresa May and sometimes condemns her basic Remainer instincts while more or less completely ignoring the man at the point whose only proof of purpose so far has been to utterly scupper any possible application of the sort of Brexit that was envisaged at the 2016 referendum.
This of course is a great victory either for somebody or for some organization but in the absence of the knowledge of Rasputin's puppet master, patience
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 09:14
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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Seems like a safe pair of hands?!?

BoJo water cannons sold for £300,000 loss.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 09:21
  #479 (permalink)  
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No.

If TM should a vote of confidence by her MPS, a highly unlikely occurrence, I would expect a temporary party leader to replace her, on recent polls probably Davis or Raab. As a permanent replacement I would put my money on Sajid Javid - the only doubt being selecting two Foreign Secretary’s in a row.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 10:06
  #480 (permalink)  
 
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No

(ps to make up to ten characters)
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