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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:02
  #4201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Since the referendum result it has been obvious to me that the EU playbook goes as follows.

1 - the UK are idiots and will come to their senses if we stonewall enough.

2. Oh dear, that didn't work, force them into a BRINO deal where they stay in the single market and customs union, subject to ECJ and all EU rules, paying into the budget as before.

3. Sh!t, that didn't work - panic.

We seem to have arrived at stage 3. To leave on 30th March with no deal is a disaster for the EU, and undesirable for UK. Kicking the can down the road by delaying implementation will change nothing. The 'backstop' is the EU way of keeping us permanently in their playbook 2 move, and there must be a legally binding exit if the UK is to negotiate a sensible free trade deal. If the Japanese can have one, then why not the UK?
Yes. There have been predictions of your stage 3 ever since the referendum. And there have also been predictions that it won't happen, ever since the referendum.​​​​​

We will soon see who was right.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:04
  #4202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


Although I concur with much of what you argue I really think that you are wrong on Corbyn. If this all goes horribly wrong, which I guess we both think it will, then Corbyn by his conduct has firmly placed himself beside May at the centre of the shitstorm. I don't think he has a chance of getting away with it and I doubt that he will survive the fury of the membership if he enables May to effect any kind of Brexit..
Which seems all the more possible given that he has apparently written to May offering her assistance in getting her deal through parliament - in return for, amongst other things, negotiating a customs union allied to, but not the same as the current customs union, which a clause allowing the UK to make it's own trade deals.

That would be a tough sell for the government in Brussels, possibly an even harder sell to his party membership. Apparently Keir Starmer is meeting David Liddington to discuss today.

Interesting times!
ATNotts is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:20
  #4203 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still on friendly terms with a Labour Councillor in the Ward where I used to live. He's a tireless worker for his constituents and therefore the only socialist I ever voted for.

Like his MP and most of his colleagues he voted for Remain, and like them he quietly admits to wanting rid of Corbyn and his clique. But publicly he continues to support the leadership so that he can continue to do the work he loves. He knows he will be out if he doesn't.

I feel sorry for him.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:33
  #4204 (permalink)  
 
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Age: 67
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I have no sympathy with that position. When Corbyn became leader I severed all contacts with the party. When asked to help in 2017 I quoted prior engagements for the period of the election.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:35
  #4205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
That would be a tough sell for the government in Brussels, possibly an even harder sell to his party membership. Apparently Keir Starmer is meeting David Liddington to discuss today.

Interesting times!
PMQs was Lidington v Emily Thornberry yesterday due to May being away in Northern Ireland. Ken Clarke wryly observed afterwards that if those 2 were leading things we’d have a deal agreed in Parliament and with the E.U. in about 5 minutes. I presume a reference to May’s inability to do anything apart from kicking any can she can find further down the road, and Corbyn’s unstated desire to get out of the E.U. without ever admitting it. I think he probably had a point!
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 09:50
  #4206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I have no sympathy with that position. When Corbyn became leader I severed all contacts with the party. When asked to help in 2017 I quoted prior engagements for the period of the election.
Must admit that was my thoughts too. It's a version of party before country, writ large that's brought us to this mess.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:09
  #4207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I have no sympathy with that position. When Corbyn became leader I severed all contacts with the party. When asked to help in 2017 I quoted prior engagements for the period of the election.
I can understand your reaction. But he feels his duty is to his constituents and I know from first hand what good work he has done. The last thing he wants is to be replaced by a radical who is only interested in political agitation.

To question your own attitude, shouldn't you have stated directly why you wouldn't help rather than just make excuses?
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:11
  #4208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
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From an EU perspective, they are deeply unhappy to watch as 15% of their financial budget walks away. That presents a huge hit to the EU's ability to throw its' weight around on the world stage. It is that loss of face that drives the EU policy of trying to make Brexit so unpalatable as to make BRINO seem like a sensible option.

The reality is that trade will continue much as before and while there might be a short term dip, measured in weeks or months, neither the EU nor the UK will cease trading with each other. What will happen is that the EU will lose control over 15% of its' financial resources and that is no small amount.

By contrast, the UK will regain full control over its' finances and trade, subject to the usual caveats regarding trade and financial agreements globally. The EU simply can't stomach the idea that a country can leave the EU and come out ahead of the deal. The EU have lost sight of the fact that the UK had a plan, it was always prepared to walk away without a deal from day one. It was implicit within the referendum question and the "out means out" statements made during the referendum campaigning.

Even given two and a half years to come up with an alternative plan, the EU are unable to arrive at anything better than remain in the EU, or remain in the EU but with no political input. Sorry guys but no deal is better than anything the EU has proposed.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:17
  #4209 (permalink)  
 
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By contrast, the UK will regain full control over its' finances and trade, subject to the usual caveats regarding trade and financial agreements globally.
Care to spell out what those "usual caveats" actually are and what impact they will have on the UK?


The EU have lost sight of the fact that the UK had a plan,
Which was what ? Remain in the customs Union/Single Market ? (Johnson's comments pre the Referendum) Remain in the EU (May. pre the referendum)? Sign up within days of the referendum to trade deals because they are the easiest thing in the World to organise...(to paraphrase Fox, Davis and others)?.

There was no absolutely no credible and coherent plan at the UK end prior to the referendum ,and TBH there isn't even one now.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:23
  #4210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post


By contrast, the UK will regain full control over its' finances and trade, subject to the usual caveats regarding trade and financial agreements globally. The EU simply can't stomach the idea that a country can leave the EU and come out ahead of the deal. The EU have lost sight of the fact that the UK had a plan, it was always prepared to walk away without a deal from day one. It was implicit within the referendum question and the "out means out" statements made during the referendum campaigning.

So in direct contradiction to Donald Tusk's remarks yesterday, this is the explicit plan you voted for? Can you point me towards the leave campaign literature that set this out in detail?

Clue: No you can't & not only that, not one leaver can. You all inhabit a world of fantasy speculation where you tell us over & over the EU is shooting itself in the face & we're holding the ace card when it's patently obvious to anyone capable of walking & talking simultaneously the opposite is the case. It's the political equivalent of football fandom, blind tribalism to the exclusion of reality all the way until relegation happens.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:28
  #4211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
Even given two and a half years to come up with an alternative plan, the EU are unable to arrive at anything better than remain in the EU, or remain in the EU but with no political input. Sorry guys but no deal is better than anything the EU has proposed.
In keeping with the day's principle of correcting others' posts, let me help you with this one:

Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
Even given two and a half years to come up with an alternative plan, the UK are unable to arrive at anything better than remain in the EU, or remain in the EU but with no political input.
To remind you once again, it was the UK that decided to leave the EU - not the other way round. It's not a divorce, we simply left the EU and they were not obliged to make any proposals at all.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:38
  #4212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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yeah, on that EU planning you mentioned -





Tick, tock..
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 10:44
  #4213 (permalink)  
 
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To remind you once again, it was the UK that decided to leave the EU - not the other way round. It's not a divorce, we simply left the EU and they were not obliged to make any proposals at all.
Quite correct. Neither was the UK then obliged to make any proposals, although it is sensible to do so. The EU, however, under the terms of Article 50, are obliged to negotiate 'taking into account the future relationship with the nation invoking Article 50'. They were the party that refused to do so until a leaving fee of 39 Billion Euros was agreed (although with the UK caveat that 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'). Martin Selmayr (who, you may recall was 'appointed' to his position of power illegally, and the EU enquiry agreed that it was not lawful, but does not deem it necessary to take any action) seems convinced the whle amount will be forthcoming even in the event of no deal. He may get a surprise.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:10
  #4214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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The EU has no plan?

Well this long game has been postulated by some ed in the non English press well before it made the Guardian..

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ain-industries
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:16
  #4215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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This clown Tusk, is now playing "God". Who is he to reserve a place in hell for anyone, leave alone a special place? That is The desision which will be made by God almighty.

Europe need to recover from this selective amnesia, and remind themselves, if it wasn't for the UK the Americans, and the Commonwealth, with the supreme sacifices there made, there would be NO effin Europe!! With no help from the Irish as a Nation either..
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:45
  #4216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
From an EU perspective, they are deeply unhappy to watch as 15% of their financial budget walks away. That presents a huge hit to the EU's ability to throw its' weight around on the world stage. It is that loss of face that drives the EU policy of trying to make Brexit so unpalatable as to make BRINO seem like a sensible option.

It is useful to have in mind that the overall UK's net contribution is approx 10.5bn EUR and EU budget is close to the 150bn EUR mark. Theose 150bn EUR represent, however, just 1 per cent of the gross national income of the EU member states.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:54
  #4217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
With no help from the Irish as a Nation either..
Apart from the tens of thousands of Irish who joined your armed forces, and Sunderlands etc being given free passage through Irish airspace when the Germans were not, and every time a Brit crash landed in Ireland the plane and crew were transferred across the border, whereas the the German crews were kept here (albeit in nice circumstances) and their aircraft integrated into the Irish Aer Corps, and a significant number of Hurricanes and Spitfires from the Irish Aer Corps mysteriously being transferred to the RAF during the battle for Britain, and the entire Dublin Fire Brigade relocating to Belfast for the duration of the Blitz to assist dealing with the aftermath of bombings....

Apart from those things yeah nothing.
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:58
  #4218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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And the Germam Submarine pens in the West of Ireland????
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 12:10
  #4219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
And the Germam Submarine pens in the West of Ireland????
There is no evidence of a U-boat ever refuelling or Resupplying in Ireland. There are tales of crews parking up in remote inlets, coming ashore and getting pissed (seriously).

Remember this was 20 odd years after Churchill ordered his Black and Tans in to Ireland to terrorize the population into not harbouring rebels. Rural communities were burned to the ground. This same man was looking for Ireland's help to fight a nation that was at that point (pre concemtration camps etc) doing exactly what Britain had for centuries up to that point ie invade and subjugate other countries.

Anyway, May's proposal to re open negotiations has been rejected in Brussels.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 12:20
  #4220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Point taken. Yes the were great sacrifices made by many brave Irish as with the free French, etc., etc. Of that I am aware.

I also understand the seeds of hatred were sown and still exist.

Ireland does hold the key to sort this mess.
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