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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 16th Nov 2018, 16:41
  #401 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Taken from that link:



I find it very hard to take this sort of claim remotely seriously. "Staggering" levels of child poverty? Really? Perhaps they haven't got the latest games console........

Maybe Professor Alston should get out of his comfortable 1st world environment and go and check out some real poverty. Oh wait - they probably don't have a Sheraton for him to stay in anywhere like that........
Allow me to add some clarification which, possibly, once you have read it that is, should offer you a brief glimpse of what you disparagingly refer to as "remotely seriously "...or do you feel those suffering under a prolonged and sustained social engineering policy.......I mentioned this when Cameron and Osborne came to power and thereafter announced the "age of austerity " was now in place, but, they had a plan to save the nation...and with all the rapture on here with the result, this suggestion was, of course, ridiculed outright......don't actually exist and the findings and figures are merely hypothetical

Now, however, the fruits of their plans are beginning to blossom.....fruit probably not being on the menu for those who are suffering deprivation, but, it's nice to read you having been reading Mail / Excess editorials as to how people on benefits always need the latest games consoles, plasma TV's. or indeed any extravagance to squander their pittance on......fiction sounding far more appealing than fact here.

Child poverty facts and figures | Child Poverty Action Group

Alternatively, feel free to explain, why, safely ensconced in Wisteria Avenue, you cannot take these claims remotely seriously....
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 17:17
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post


If we’re attaching so much importance to YouGov surveys, it should be pointed out that their survey conducted on 14/15 Nov found 54% - 46% in favour of staying in the EU if the referendum was held now. 59% - 41% in favour of a public vote on the deal; and 64% - 36% in favour of a public vote on dropping Brexit vs leaving with no deal if MPs vote against the deal. Don’t knows/would not vote excluded in all 3 cases.

As opposed to an official referendum that resulted in what?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 17:22
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post



As opposed to an official referendum that resulted in what?
Millions of people voting on a false prospectus, a position of ignorance & quite possibly a criminal conspiracy involving but not limited to the Russian government, Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, Richard Tice, Steve Bannon and many others? That referendum?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 17:32
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Millions of people voting on a false prospectus, a position of ignorance & quite possibly a criminal conspiracy involving but not limited to the Russian government, Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, Richard Tice, Steve Bannon and many others? That referendum?

Blooming heck what sort of country do we live in. They are all corrupt and only a few know what is right. By the way that is what you said, not what I voted.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 17:57
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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Because the nation voted for Brexit during the referendum, the combined vote for Brexit supporting parties during the last election was 85%, there is - as evinced in the YouGov poll above - no mass support for another referendum or against Brexit.
Just because this has been trotted out so many times doesn't mean it's true.

What was actually said was the all the parties accepted the result of the referendum, not that they supported Brexit.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 18:08
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Alternatively, feel free to explain, why, safely ensconced in Wisteria Avenue, you cannot take these claims remotely seriously....
Why? Because I've seen real, genuine, grinding poverty. Not the absurd "relative poverty" that people like Prof Alston love to quote. And the difference is so self-evident that if you can't distinguish between the two then it's futile trying to explain.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 18:19
  #407 (permalink)  
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When poverty is defined as earning 60% of the median income it inevitably follows that somewhere between 20-25% of the population will always be identified as being poor - even if their income and standard of living vastly exceeds that of their parents and over 90% of that of the world population.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 18:47
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
A no deal Brexit is economic suicide for UK - we make nothing of value and our GDP is based on house prices and funds flows through the City. As for the argument about not having a second referendum -why is hat impossible whena Tory leadership change is possibleevenn though its not remotely democratic. Democracy isnt democracy if you cannot change your mind-thus spoke David Davis.

If anything this week has shown that however bad Brussels and the EU can sometimes be they are nothing compared to our own politicians who put party before country and behaving in a manner that has seen even the Daily Mail launcha tirade against their antics. People like Johnson and Rees Mogg are the scum of the earth, the veryupeople to blame for Britains problems while they live their privileged lifestyle at the expense of joe public-for shame!!
A valid summary of the current state of affairs.
Just for clarity I voted to remain.

We now find ourselves at the mercy of two opposing factions.
1. The EU who have out negotiated us to the extent that they cannot move fast enough to ratify the so called deal. From their perspective they have played a blinder. They have done to us exactly what we should have done to the 27 members - divide and conquer and cough up £39 thousand million pounds for the divorce bill.
2. The ERG led by Rees-Mogg who are desperate for us to leave with a No Deal and revert to WTO rules.

I wish that I really understood what the pros and cons were of WTO trading. One person says it will be the best thing while others say it will be a disaster leading to massive job losses and economic downturn.
The problem we have is WHO can we believe.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 19:29
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
The ERG led by Rees-Mogg who are desperate for us to leave with a No Deal and revert to WTO rules.
AIUI, and I will be happy to be corrected, it's not as simple as that. We have to apply as a new member and negotiate our entry.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:04
  #410 (permalink)  
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The reporting today has been that EU politicians, including Angela Merkel, have been stating dogmatically that the deal has been done and absolutely no renegotiating or changes can be made. And yet.......

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...dges-dx3cr2qx0

Brexit: EU nations demand fishing rights and powers for Euro judges

The EU is to demand greater powers for European judges to police Britain after it leaves the union to ensure it does not gain an economic advantage.....

Tough negotiations begin this weekend as countries move to protect their economic interests before summit negotiations on a document that will set the shape of Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU. A seven-page text published alongside the draft divorce deal on Wednesday will become a much longer document — “20-plus pages” — by Tuesday because divisions between European countries have surfaced.....

According to diplomatic notes, France has demanded a “guarantee that there should be a fisheries agreement giving French and other European fishing fleets access to British waters. Belgium and Denmark have joined forces with the French to complain that the failure to insist on fishing rights in return for a customs union backstop had breached the mandate given to Mr Barnier by EU leaders in March. “The lack of a guarantee breaches a red line,” a diplomat said.

Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany fear that the withdrawal agreement will allow Britain to trade goods inside Europe’s external tariff customs border while undercutting the requirements of single-market regulations. “We are concerned that the UK is getting what it wants, which undermines the level playing field of the single market,” a diplomat from the bloc of countries said.

The pressure for tougher “level playing field” rules means that Britain will face new demands to “dynamically align” itself by following EU social and environment legislation as part of future trade talks with a greater enforcement role for the ECJ.

Countries led by Ireland and Germany have reinforced EU red lines to insist that the “customs backstop cannot be unilaterally withdrawn”, the issue that Dominic Raab, the former Brexit secretary, resigned over on Thursday......


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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:25
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
2. The ERG led by Rees-Mogg who are desperate for us to leave with a No Deal and revert to WTO rules.
The thing is that thanks to dirty donald the WTO will cease to function in any meaningful way by the end of next year.

The WTO tribunal (the "court" which rules on trade disputes without which the WTO has no power to enforce its rules) requires a quorum of three judges who must be "independent" with respect to the disputing parties in any case that they judge. There is a pool of judges from all over the world, or at least there was. Judges are proposed by WTO member states, and require the unanimous approval of all the others before they can be appointed to the pool. Judges serve for a fixed term (I think it's three years). Some cases drag on, so the WTO have for many years taken the view that judges will continue to serve on cases that run past the end of their term (typically for a couple of weeks, on rare cases for a couple of months) for continuity. This is a technical violation of the WTO rules, but one that all WTO members were happy to allow for pragmatic reasons. The EU proposed a rule change to formalise this which was approved by all countries, but was veto'd by dirty donald because the WTO was clearly anti-american - it had the brazen nerve to give rulings based on the facts of cases rather than just award in favour of american companies by default. His administration proposed a rule change that would slant rulings towards the USA, and that was unacceptable to other WTO members, so there was a stalemate.

Dirty donald decided to turn up the heat. He started a policy of refusing to approve any new judges unless the WTO agreed his rule changes. This meant that the pool of judges grew smaller as terms ended but new judges were not appointed. IIRC the pool is now down to four judges, and cannot hear US or EU cases because it can't provide an independent quorum for either. As I remember the pool actually drops below three sometime next year, after which the WTO ceases to be able to perform any useful function at all.

Now it is inconceivable that the Brexit Mendocrats who are promoting the "hard brexit and WTO trading" option don't know about this, so either they are stupid in not appreciating the ramifications or they are just cynical self-aggrandising despots. It doesn't really matter which it is - the point is that looking to have a no-deal brexit and placing faith in "WTO Rules" is touchingly naive, but it's not an option that any rational person could recommend unless you happen to WANT to destroy the UK economy at a stroke.

PDR

PS - you don't have to take my word for this. Just google some permutation of trump WTO judges and you'll find the objectively-sourced details
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:31
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Yep. All along the UK political and media perspective has been EU versus UK and „who blinks first“ Of course, the moment the interests of any of the other 27 (!) member states come into question it all looks a bit different
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:34
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The reporting today has been that EU politicians, including Angela Merkel, have been stating dogmatically that the deal has been done and absolutely no renegotiating or changes can be made. And yet.......

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...dges-dx3cr2qx0

Brexit: EU nations demand fishing rights and powers for Euro judges

The EU is to demand greater powers for European judges to police Britain after it leaves the union to ensure it does not gain an economic advantage.....

Tough negotiations begin this weekend as countries move to protect their economic interests before summit negotiations on a document that will set the shape of Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU. A seven-page text published alongside the draft divorce deal on Wednesday will become a much longer document — “20-plus pages” — by Tuesday because divisions between European countries have surfaced.....

According to diplomatic notes, France has demanded a “guarantee that there should be a fisheries agreement giving French and other European fishing fleets access to British waters. Belgium and Denmark have joined forces with the French to complain that the failure to insist on fishing rights in return for a customs union backstop had breached the mandate given to Mr Barnier by EU leaders in March. “The lack of a guarantee breaches a red line,” a diplomat said.

Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany fear that the withdrawal agreement will allow Britain to trade goods inside Europe’s external tariff customs border while undercutting the requirements of single-market regulations. “We are concerned that the UK is getting what it wants, which undermines the level playing field of the single market,” a diplomat from the bloc of countries said.

The pressure for tougher “level playing field” rules means that Britain will face new demands to “dynamically align” itself by following EU social and environment legislation as part of future trade talks with a greater enforcement role for the ECJ.

Countries led by Ireland and Germany have reinforced EU red lines to insist that the “customs backstop cannot be unilaterally withdrawn”, the issue that Dominic Raab, the former Brexit secretary, resigned over on Thursday......
Not the same thing. The Brexit exit deal is fixed.
What this article refers to is the final trading agreement, after the transitional period is finished. That's still to be sorted.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:52
  #414 (permalink)  
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No, these are changes they want made to the draft withdrawal agreement.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:59
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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I suppose if some of the 27 can make changes to the draft withdrawal agreement then so can the UK!
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 21:33
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
No, these are changes they want made to the draft withdrawal agreement.
These are requests from individual nations, and I don't see that they can be included now. The EU has already said that the deal now is 'on the table'.
But these demands will certainly be pressed when the final trade deal is negotiated.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 21:34
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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Ha ha what a fiasco- finally the reality dawns on some of our politician that brexit is not just economic suicide but career suicide .

Ha ha - Oh no you cannot have a second referendum but we in the Conservative party can have a vote and change our minds about the leader we voted for to guide us through Brexit

Ha ha Take back control - what and give it to the imbeciles in the ruling party we have at the moment , yeas thats really sensible. Even the Daily Mail was brutally savaging the hard Brexiteers in its front page 'Opinion' in today's paper (Friday). How many Brexit secretaries is that now , David asleep at the wheel Davis , Raab -I dind trelaise Dover to Calais and the Tunnel were important to our trade and someone we have never heard of .

Ha Ha - we have not been able to 'strike' -what a silly a silly word any trade deals yet , allegedly because we are still in the EU but apparently there are none on the table. Seeing as most of these deals take 4-8 years to negotiate what are we going to do in the interim especially as some countries are determined to block us from WTO membership for all kinds of reasons, these include our great friends the USA and even pro royal New Zealand.

Of course a trade with the USA is important but even a friendly US administration would use the huge leverage it has over us when we are out in the cold to basically force through any deal we want, now consider what the attitude of America first under Trump will be. here is where you sign and the UK contribution to the negotiations is limited to what colour ball point we sign it with.

On the subject of the US clearly we want a deal with a country that has Companies who lied through their teeth about buying Cadbury chocolate and promptly changed the recipe and moved production to the Eu . A country who allowed a major food company to sell infant and baby apple juice drink which had no apple juice in it for ten years, A country that has the lowest food hygiene standards in the first world , washing chicken in chlorine rather than preventing infections at source, a huge proportion of women suffering hormonally induced cancers compared with the Eu . A country that in the main interests of this site seemingly deliberately hid a serious control law problem on a 50 year old design that finally ran out of room for modifications and also hid the existence of the automated control input 'fix' they used to cover up the problem-do we reallyw ant to be more dependent on a country like that?

Ha Ha We want to rid ourselves of the thousands and thousand of EU citizens who pay billions in income tax just because they are 'foreign'

ha ha to the person who made light of my earlier post about our woeful export record , well just look at the UK balance of trade stats-we might have a good GDP based on london property prices, the City acting as middleman on multi billion deals where the billions flow in but then flow out again with only a small fraction of those values staying in the UK , invisible exports they used to be accurately called.

Thats a lot of ha ha s but sadly its not funny, well it is to the rest of the world of course, most of whom have got good reason for us to make ourselves a laughing stock because we are so insular narrow minded and above all ignorant about our place in the world and how the global economies work and somehow still think it is 1818 not 2018. And of course back in the day we have attacked, invaded or threatened almost every country in the world as documented in an amusing recent book so they will all rush to be our friends wont they?

And as for the person who questioned my comment that Britain does not make anything of value for export go and check out our 'current Account balance' and see what we export compared to import,
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 21:42
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yotty View Post
I suppose if some of the 27 can make changes to the draft withdrawal agreement then so can the UK!
Doubt that very much. More like a rejection of the negotiated deal, just like the position with the UK Parlament. No time for any significant addendums; no wisdom in it either. Definately the route to a hard Brexit.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 22:52
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Here in Russia we have an agent working for us at the highest level of the British Political establishment, not just one in fact.. many.... Theresa May and her bunch of inept incumbents.... doing more damage to UK stability than we ever could!

Seriously though from afar it really does look like they have not been just inept but almost criminally negligent in their dealings the last few years.... now they are urging May to go back to the EU who have already stated that they aren't going to get any better deal (and they were lucky to get what they did) yet they still insist on this futile exercise. Worse still this is deja-vu from the previous attempts.... you couldn't make it up.

Would go as far to say that for me they are the most disastrous and useless government in my living memory (Thatcher onwards) and likely quite possibly in UK history, making Call-me-Dave look almost positively Churchillian, no mean feat.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 05:47
  #420 (permalink)  
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The inconvenient issue, well several million inconveniences to be more accurate, of those suffering the effects of poverty in the UK was mentioned in passing on here and duly derided .

Strange as it may seem therefore, the interview with the UN representative strikes me as balanced and credible, devoid of embellishment...and a damning insight as to how the "caring " party have induced this as a result of their policies......that's in the first interview.

The second, however.is equally if not more insightful, thanks to the inadvertent inclusion of one little word........disproportional .....along with the metronomic regurgitation of numbers to ostensibly support the fallacy of "care " ......

The residents of JB Wisteria Avenue, and Middle England in the real world, will doubtless be sending apoplectic emails to their MP's now they have learnt they have, ostensibly, been discriminated against in favour of the UK's feckless scroungers and societal leeches ....

https://www.channel4.com/news/progra...018/11/16/1900

For those on here who lack any sense of humour, or who are reticent if not completely obdurate when it comes to reading Guardian links....... and the two traits are inextricably linked in many cases are they not.....chaps, this article will be beyond your understanding......for those who do have a sense of humour however.....it's both satirical comment and definitive analysis in equal measure....
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-plant-workers

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 17th Nov 2018 at 06:18.
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