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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 6th Feb 2019, 17:05
  #4161 (permalink)  
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People get the government they deserve.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 17:13
  #4162 (permalink)  
 
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11. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with a land border with an EU Member State, and the free and unfettered movement of goods and people across that border is vital to the lives and livelihoods of the people on both sides of the border.

12. The UK Government remains firmly committed to negotiating a future relationship that permanently avoids the need for a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. This is reflected in both the Political Declaration and the Withdrawal Agreement. However, as an additional insurance policy, the UK and the EU have agreed a Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland which guarantees that, even in the event that our future relationship with the EU is not in place by the end of the implementation period, there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland or a splitting of the UK customs territory.

13. Key provisions of the Protocol include:
(a) the safeguarding of the Belfast Agreement and the principle of consent it enshrines;
(b) the ongoing protection of rights protected in the Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunity chapter of the Belfast Agreement;
(c) the continuation of the Common Travel Area between the United Kingdom and Ireland;
(d) the continuation of the Single Electricity Market (SEM) on the island of Ireland;
(e) the establishment of a single customs territory comprising the United Kingdom and the European Union, with accompanying commitments for open and fair competition on tax, environment and labour practices, as well as ongoing harmonisation of rules on state aid; along with the application of some EU rules concerning standards and regulations for goods (a small fraction of those rules currently underpinning the single market) in Northern Ireland - in order to avoid a hard border and grant full access for NI businesses to the UK and EU markets.

14. The Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration are clear that neither the UK nor the EU intends for the backstop to ever be brought into effect. It would also require significant further work in advance of any implementation, as the technical explanatory note agreed between the UK and EU sets out. The voice of Northern Ireland will therefore be critical as we move forward. As such, this paper sets out the measures which the Government intends to take to protect the Belfast Agreement and ensure that voice is heard - both in any decision to bring the Northern Ireland Protocol into effect, and in its implementation in that scenario.

Extract from one of the numerous white papers the government has produced, links to which I have posted before, dated 09/01/2019.

Reading through a small number of the papers that have been produced over the last 2 years (mainly those on topics that hit the headlines), it would appear that some politicians do not know what is in those papers, or they are just being disingenuous to make headlines.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 17:28
  #4163 (permalink)  
 
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It's this kind of touching faith in unicorns that's brought us to this point. Tusk is right, not a sketch of a plan.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:01
  #4164 (permalink)  
 
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Tory broadcast featuring the NHS and telling us how their brilliant management of the economy is making things tickety boo. Chutzpah doesn't begin to cover it!
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:03
  #4165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
No need to worry ORAC.
Illegal or not, they aren't going to let us stay now, even if Theresa goes down on her knees and gives Tusk a pleasant surprise. They will let us leave, and later pick up any remaining pieces that are still worth having at half price.
It's all over.
Not that's it's likely to happen, but if the UK ever did revoke Article 50 wouldn't it be the UK's decision? I do not not see that we need the EU's permission to 'stay now'?

I've only seen brief media coverage of Tusk's remarks today, but I sense he has allowed his personal view to get the better of his professionalism. He's never made any secret of the fact that he'd like the UK to reverse its decision and stay in the EU. That we have not done so is maybe a source of frustration to him personally and hence the prepared rebuke to those in the UK unable to deliver his preferred outcome. We will all remember his cake/cherries tweet after the EU rebuff of May last year and I think that was generally interpreted as arrogance on his part in the UK and I did not think his attempt at being 'witty' then did him any favours. This outburst today, if that is the right word, I think will similarly go down badly in the UK and perhaps he would have been better advised not to have said it. It is after all a rebuke to 'Remainers' in a position to actually get things done.

As we all know we are in the end game, I sense a softening of the EU position by what I have read on the www today, let us trust that common sense prevails. Your thoughts - I believe your last position was firmly that the UK was going to leave on the 29th without a deal? Do you think the EU is retaining it's rigid position?
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:23
  #4166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Not that's it's likely to happen, but if the UK ever did revoke Article 50 wouldn't it be the UK's decision? I do not not see that we need the EU's permission to 'stay now'?

I've only seen brief media coverage of Tusk's remarks today, but I sense he has allowed his personal view to get the better of his professionalism. He's never made any secret of the fact that he'd like the UK to reverse its decision and stay in the EU. That we have not done so is maybe a source of frustration to him personally and hence the prepared rebuke to those in the UK unable to deliver his preferred outcome. We will all remember his cake/cherries tweet after the EU rebuff of May last year and I think that was generally interpreted as arrogance on his part in the UK and I did not think his attempt at being 'witty' then did him any favours. This outburst today, if that is the right word, I think will similarly go down badly in the UK and perhaps he would have been better advised not to have said it. It is after all a rebuke to 'Remainers' in a position to actually get things done.

As we all know we are in the end game, I sense a softening of the EU position by what I have read on the www today, let us trust that common sense prevails. Your thoughts - I believe your last position was firmly that the UK was going to leave on the 29th without a deal? Do you think the EU is retaining it's rigid position?
Without a satisfactory deal, yes. That's been my view for two years and I see nothing now to change it.
The EU were never going to change their four freedoms. If you think that they will 'soften' them now, you are mistaken.

As for Tusk's comments, we have heard far worse in the European Parliament when an MEP representing the United Kingdom has on several occasions made speeches intended deliberately to offend Tusk and the whole EU administration. The same Farage who now calls Tusk 'arrogant'.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:26
  #4167 (permalink)  
 
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:31
  #4168 (permalink)  
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Farage has always been amusing. Tusk presumes himself an international statesman and as such should conduct his publicprounouncements with a lack of bias and a certain gravitas.

footnote. Any attempt to divert the above comment by raising the comparative spectre of Trump will be seen as nothing more than the standard remainder trick of blaming business avoiding Britain on Brexit when the far greater portion of that phenomenon is due to The threat of a Marxist government.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:31
  #4169 (permalink)  
 
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lame

Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
Would that be the same assembly which rejected the EU withdrawal agreement, voted down an ammendment to extend the notice period, then passed a vote of confidence in the party leader who was recently forced to answer a leadership challenge from their own party.

Are we seriously expected to believe this is a good basis for negotiations? The system is broken when the latest solution to avoid an imminent default exit is to hastily set up an Alternative Arrangements Working Group. To suggest otherwise is delusional.
Why do you repeatedly miss the point I am making? Is it deliberate, a diversion tactic, or can you honestly not see what I have been saying. I shall repeat, in simple terms...

You laid the blame for the current situation (using medical isotopes as your example) squarely at the feet of one person. I countered that and stated the fact that many, many people are responsible for the current situation. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not understand why you previously attacked me personally (and have made no hint of an apology for doing so) and now you try and avoid the direct and single point I made with reference to your quoted post. All I can think of is that you can not bring yourself to admit that you were wrong to blame just one person, a person that it appears you have a personal/political disliking of, which may be clouding your judgement.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:35
  #4170 (permalink)  
 
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Repetitive AND simplistic.

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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:46
  #4171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
footnote. Any attempt to divert the above comment by raising the comparative spectre of Trump will be seen as nothing more than the standard remainder trick of blaming business avoiding Britain on Brexit when the far greater portion of that phenomenon is due to The threat of a Marxist government.
In your opinion.
So how do you explain that none of the businesses leaving the UK have blamed it, formally or informally, on Corbyn?
And since the possibility of a Marxist government is greatly enhanced by the financial crisis directly following Brexit, the two are inextricably entwined anyway.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:52
  #4172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
Farage has always been amusing. Tusk presumes himself an international statesman and as such should conduct his publicprounouncements with a lack of bias and a certain gravitas.
Tusk is the son of a carpenter who saw gun battles in the street, joined anti communist gangs & was imprisoned by the Soviets. Once again you've inexplicably gone out of your way to show the world how little you really know on the subjects you choose to hold forth on.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 18:56
  #4173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
Repetitive AND simplistic.
Is that honestly the best retort you can come up with?
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:04
  #4174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
In your opinion.
So how do you explain that none of the businesses leaving the UK have blamed it, formally or informally, on Corbyn?
And since the possibility of a Marxist government is greatly enhanced by the financial crisis directly following Brexit, the two are inextricably entwined anyway.
No they are not inextricably entwined. A reaction to new labour or student naivety over abolishment of fees maybe but ' financial chrisis' no. Happy to examine the evidence if you care to present it, otherwise I'll consider it another sound bite.

Last edited by Mr Optimistic; 6th Feb 2019 at 19:24. Reason: I'll get the hang of this one day
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:05
  #4175 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Tusk is the son of a carpenter who saw gun battles in the street, joined anti communist gangs & was imprisoned by the Soviets..
Who, Tusk or his father?
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:16
  #4176 (permalink)  
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Mainly the latter. Certainly not a life any one in the comfortable west will have endured.

Respect where respect is due.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/e...ent/biography/
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:17
  #4177 (permalink)  
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Tusk is a career politician who has specialised in concentrating power in his own hands; arguably no different to most other politicians, perhaps just a little more ruthless.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:34
  #4178 (permalink)  
 
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Forget Tusk. Theresa May is where you should concentrate your thoughts. She is after a customs union ( no hard border there). Entirely consistent with her red lines no doubt. Better to remain than accept her deal in my opinion. Other than that, frustrate all efforts and go for a no deal. It will be managed one way or the other despite the hot air.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:36
  #4179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
No they are not inextricably entwined. A reaction to new labour or student naivety over abolishment of fees maybe but ' financial chrisis' no. Happy to examine the evidence if you care to present it, otherwise I'll consider it another sound bite.
You want evidence of the future.
Can you do that?

I'm happy to wait until the future happens (and would be even more happy to find out that I was wrong)
After all, we don't have long to wait.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:43
  #4180 (permalink)  
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