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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th Nov 2018, 22:11
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Before The last US Presidential election u's guy were going on about the possibility of an idiot (Trump) being elected and I shot back about the possibility of Brexit being the will of your own voters,

Well we'll be rid of our horror in 2020.

Where will Y'll be then ?

If you don't know then you have made an even bigger mistake
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 22:58
  #362 (permalink)  
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Here's the thing though, the UK will eventually, under a new leader, have another referendum and that vote will be to remain in the EU. There will be a terrible price to pay for that of course, no one dares mention that.
Some years down the line the UK will really have had enough of Europe and will, by now so poor it cannot fund its own military, attempt to leave once again. At that point the EU, with its new and very effective army just itching to be deployed will attempt to impose a martial law on Britain. This will begin a pan European war. The result of that conflict will depend upon whose side the USA enters the war, if it does at all.
Had El Trumpo really gone out on a limb to support post Brexit UK trade right at the beginning, the EU might have been scared off. It's ironic that the US, by not really riding to Britain's aid in this trans European conflict, might be the fundamental cause of the next major world conflict and that within a decade to two.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 23:23
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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No-one should underestimate the pressures from the church here. Not only Reece Frog and Norris but the Northern Ireland crew who are avowed to dissociate themselves from Southern Ireland at all costs. The DUP have such a stronghold on the Prime Minister as without them she has no majority, however this same group are the ones who historically were participants in the disputes and who have been responsible for the collapse of their own government body. The Orange fight continues.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 23:53
  #364 (permalink)  
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It really would have been so easy to have a referendum in England on whether Northern Ireland should remain a part of the UK. Once a satisfactory result had been obtained, on that or subsequent referendums, the two Irelands would have had to become united. The UK would be diminished in size bit probably greatly advantaged in other ways and the Scots would have been taught a salutary lesson as to what was in store for that nation of economic dependents.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 06:40
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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“DUP have such a stronghold..” The only reason such a tiny number of MPs have such a large leverage is Labour’s cynical policy of opposing whatever deal is achieved. I’m no more overjoyed at yesterday’s draft than anyone but it was never going to make everyone happy. And even if the EU were offering us the keys to Paris and Berlin with M. Macron to clean the Westminster loos, Labour would STILL opppose it. Not only is this cynical opportunism, if it succeeds (in forcing an election, nothing to do with Brexit) is there the remotest chance of Corbyn negotiating anything better?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:02
  #366 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I think her choice of Geoff Boycott as her cricketing hero was also rather Illuminating and probably explains a lot.. he was certainly famous for not giving his wicket away and getting his runs eventually......

Or as Henry Blofeld put it on one occasion:

“Geoff Boycott’s innings showed such a remarkable lack of awareness that by the end one had almost begun to question his motives,’

and

”“He thrives on this kind of responsibility and in any case needs no urging to occupy the crease. But with so little support he at times allows himself to become too introspective and bogged down for his own or his side’s good. [Sometimes] in his determination to stay in he forgets completely that one of his objects is to score runs.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...land-test-1978
Alas, tis possible when singing the praises of the greatest batsman in the history of the Universe, before, during and after its creation,, Treeza failed to notice, that, when in charge at Yorkshire, the honours board was somewhat bereft of entries for about 8 years .....and if she's making cricket analogies, she's currently facing the combined attack of Messrs Lillee McGrath and all of the Windies pacemen over the years....the guile of spin from Warne or Lance Gibbs isn't going to shift her.....it will be a line and length accuracy delivery she has to play.. and miss... from Statham that will ensure her return to the pavilion .

Now, since the number 4 button on the remote is probably covered by a guard secured with 10guage locking wire, most will have missed an interesting moment last night.

When questioned about the epitome of the evolutionary process, as in the primeval slime stage, or one M.Gove if you insist, the body language of Treeza's face showed the composure dropped at the mention of his name and the question. She does, for a politician, struggle at times when questioned, but this particular question clearly rattled her

The Royal Mail do a redirect service, for a fee of course, so it maybe a good idea to get her application in now...before Christmas.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 16th Nov 2018 at 07:43.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:03
  #367 (permalink)  
 
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Part of me wonders whether there is a view in certain quarters that a backstop is unlikely to be required, or unlikely to be permanent, as it is more likely that Ireland will re-unify in the medium term future.

The demographics of NI appear to suggest that the future direction of the population distribution in NI is more likely to favour a reunification win than anything else in the event of another referendum there.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:06
  #368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post

What a larf: A lot of Brexiteers sitting on the costas and rivieras enjoying the fruits of those freedoms: health-care agreements, pensions transfers; standardisation of laws. Without the EU that place in the sun with a decent pension would never have been available to many millions who scooped. And many of those cheeky buggers bemoan that the UK has gone to the dogs and vote Brexit! Those concerned partriots effectively invested overseas. What a bloody cheek!
Except that most of those expats weren't able to vote in the referendum.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:39
  #369 (permalink)  
 
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...depending on location and citizenship status, and where they are technically domicile.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 08:15
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“DUP have such a stronghold..” The only reason such a tiny number of MPs have such a large leverage is Labour’s cynical policy of opposing whatever deal is achieved. I’m no more overjoyed at yesterday’s draft than anyone but it was never going to make everyone happy. And even if the EU were offering us the keys to Paris and Berlin with M. Macron to clean the Westminster loos, Labour would STILL opppose it. Not only is this cynical opportunism, if it succeeds (in forcing an election, nothing to do with Brexit) is there the remotest chance of Corbyn negotiating anything better?
OMG - Her Majesty's Opposition have the temerity to oppose??? STRING 'EM UP NOW!!!

This is yet another core brexiter misdirection - it's always someone else's fault. Never mind that Jacob Rees-Mog and his junta have been undermining the government from within from the word go; clearly they are not evil traitors but just patriots in a difficult position. Never mind that the original inciters of the whole problem (Gove, Davis, Johnson, Fox et all) have all flounced from the process when it became clear that they were going to be exposed as liars and fraudsters who had promised the electorate a free ferrari each to get their votes...

The problem is not on the remain side - they are united and supporting a single, clear, deliverable vision. The problem is on the Leave side where there isn't a single view of what Leave should look like and are now deliberately wrecking the process in childish tantrums because they can't assemble a majority to support their particular brand of undeliverable dogma. There is no one on the Leave side of this who has even the faintest shred of competence - they haven't proposed a single, clear, deliverable proposition. That they have zero levels of integrity is patently evident in the way that they still blame everyone else rather than themselves.

Surely the time has now come for these shysters to own up to their misdoings and take responsibility for their actions. Time for some reflection and public self-criticism. The sincerest form of self-criticism is the warm-bath-&-razor-blade option, of course, and I'm sure the public would welcome it.

€0.0006 supplied,

PDR
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 08:29
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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“Temerity to oppose..” except we’re not talking about opposition in the parliamentary context but the bloody-minded and self-interested blocking of any deal likely to be achievable. This has given leverage beyond their wildest dreams to Rees Mogg and those others you love so much
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 08:32
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
OMG - Her Majesty's Opposition have the temerity to oppose??? STRING 'EM UP NOW!!!

This is yet another core brexiter misdirection - it's always someone else's fault.
I think ShotOne’s (quite valid) point is that Labour are opposing the draft agreement for cynical and self-serving reasons rather than as a matter of holding the government to account.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 08:38
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by farsouth View Post


Which is why, in my opinion, this should never have been decided on a simple 50.0001% majority, but should have required some level of "supermajority". (Likewise, with any referendum on Scottish independence.)
Agree. If I recall there was an earlier referendum in Scotland, either on devolution or independence which required a 60% majority. I would hope that if we are to return to another people's vote that a 60% majority would also be required.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:06
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
I think ShotOne’s (quite valid) point is that Labour are opposing the draft agreement for cynical and self-serving reasons rather than as a matter of holding the government to account.
Given the ‘disconnect’ between the current Labour leadership and many of their MPs, and the strong Remain tendencies of quite a number of those, if it was down to Labour cynicism you would be seeing a much greater number of potential rebels looking to bolster May’s side on this deal. Sure there will always be an element of opposing just because they are the opposition (show me a Parliament where that isn’t the case), but the greater motivation (regardless of whether you agree with it) is the weak language on protecting jobs and workers’ rights.

Again the criticism is from Brexiteers who can’t bring themselves to attack fellow Brexiteers and so go for any other target as a distraction. If Rees-Mogg and his fellow plotters toed the Conservative party line then this would most likely go through without too much difficulty.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:17
  #375 (permalink)  

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You and me both farsouth !
Part of a recent article I wrote :--

In the 1979 Devolution Referendum in Scotland, the people voted 52%/48% in favour of leaving ! A vote for Independence one might think !
The government of the time decided that this was not a sufficient majority and The Scotland Act was removed from the statute books ! Scotland remained a minor region of the UK.
Fast forward to the European Vote where the figures were strangely identical in favour of leaving 52%/48%
This time, of course, it is the "clear will of the people" and has propelled the entire country into a headlong trajectory towards chaos !
Funny old thing this "democracy" caper !

El Grifo
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:35
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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Is it too late to put these facts on the side of a red bus?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:46
  #377 (permalink)  
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Given a fresh referendum on leaving the EU - with a minimum of 60% (or whatever), if the result did not reach the required majority (but was, nevertheless, a majority), what action would be taken?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:58
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“Temerity to oppose..” except we’re not talking about opposition in the parliamentary context but the bloody-minded and self-interested blocking of any deal likely to be achievable. This has given leverage beyond their wildest dreams to Rees Mogg and those others you love so much
I'm afraid I disagree. The Opposition have a duty to oppose anything that they see as bad for the nation. Apparently the Brexit Mendocracy can oppose this deal because they regard it as bad for the country and they are then seen as principled statespersons, but if the Opposition oppose it for precisely the same reasons they are cynical opportunists.

I struggle to see that as anything but hypocrisy on the part of the hecklers, to be honest. Either they are both prinicpled or they are botrh cynical opportunists, shirley?

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Old 16th Nov 2018, 10:05
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
.......but if the Opposition oppose it for precisely the same reasons they are cynical opportunists.
But the opposition are not opposing it "for precisely the same reasons". They're opposing it because they want the government to fall and to precipitate an early general election.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 10:22
  #380 (permalink)  
 
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How do you know? Have you personally spoken to them and got this statement in writing, or are you just allowing your prejudices to colour your assumptions?

If you want to suggest this is a fact rather than an assumption then I'll need to see your working, with authoritative cites and references.

Meanwhile it seems that serial backstabber Michael Gove has yet to work out whose back is next for his dagger. But no doubt when he does it will be a principled decision, not a bit of cynical opportunism...

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