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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:11
  #3441 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Its up to you...but default exit is 62 days away. And the numbers either way haven't changed since two years ago.

The abuse of the opposition just cements our views.

To be honest we really don't care if your satisfied or not.... or for that matter if you have chosen not to prepare for a default exit or not. Lest face your never going to be satisfied what ever the outcome is now. The damage has been done and the clocks can't be turned back.
So it's damage then? We agree on something. It's damaging to the UK & you support it. I find that bizarre. Presumably you have no love for the country if that's the case. Any patriot would seek to add to the sum of strength of the place. Not you though.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:28
  #3442 (permalink)  
 
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Many people on here have criticised some on here about their lack of knowledge regarding the way MEPs are elected. Many saying that they are all elected and are accountable.
There follows some investigation by Chris K B on Twitter. You may already know this process, I didn't.

Given that @guyverhofstadtGuy Verhofstadt is gobbing off about what post-Brexit arrangements the European Parliament ("EP") will and will not accept I thought I would do a thread about him. In particular, where does he get his power? What democratic mandate has he got?
Guy is a Member of the European Parliament ("MEP") and is the EP's spokesperson on Brexit. He therefore speaks for around 500 million European people. Let's see with what level of democratic legitimacy he speaks for 500 million people.

Guy was not elected as an MEP. The Belgians do not elect individuals in the EP elections; they vote for political parties. Guy's political party is the Open Flemish Liberals & Democrats ("the OFLD"). The OFLD got 858,872 votes in the 2014 election.
Under the Belgian electoral college system that meant the OFLD got 3 MEPs (out of 21). The OFLD got 12.89% of the popular vote in the 2014 EP election. To put that into context, UKIP got 12.6% of the popular vote in the 2015 UK general election.
The winners of the 2014 EP election in Belgium were the New Flemish Alliance, a centre-right nationalist and separatist party who increased their share of the vote by three hundred percent. The reality... GUY IS AN MEP BECAUSE HIS PARTY GOT HAMMERED IN AN ELECTION.

So how did this MEP from this minority party in one of the European small states come to speak for the EP - and 500 million people - on Brexit? The process I am about to outline should make anyone who cares about democracy feel very unsettled.
Did MEPs elect a Brexit spokesperson in an open vote, choosing from a range of possible candidates with different views from across the political spectrum? No. Of course they didn't. Guy was APPOINTED by the CONFERENCE OF THE PRESIDENTS OF THE EP ("the Conference").
The Conference meets twice a month, in private, and is closed to all but 8 - yes 8 - MEPs. The 8 MEPs are the chairs of the 8 broad political groups into which the EP has organised itself. "What groups?" you ask, "I don't vote for a group in the EP elections". Oh yes you do.

The political parties from all the member states have organised themselves into 8 broad political groups. It is those 8 groups which operate in the EP, not the political parties themselves. Each of the 8 groups has a "President". Each of the 8 Presidents attends the Conference.
One of the 8 groups is the Alliance of Liberals & Democrats for Europe ("ALDE"). The Belgian party OFLD is in ALDE. Guy is the (unelected, obviously) president of ALDE. So Guy attends the Conference. Do you see how the VOTERS are getting more and more distant? It gets worse.
So did the Conference meet, consider a range of candidates, hold an open vote and declare the winner? No. Of course not. Well did they even meet and have a debate about candidates then? Nope. The Conference didn't even meet and there was no vote.

Guy met up with Martin Schulz (remember him?) informally. MS was the President of EP group Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats ("PASD"). Two other group Presidents joined them. In a backroom, they alone appointed Guy to speak for 500m people. WITH NO VOTE AT ALL.
The Presidents of the other political groups were informed of the appointment and the announcement was made to the world that Guy was the EP spokesperson on Brexit. An ARCH-FEDERALIST, an extremist even by EU standards, a fanatic basically had become the EP Brexit spokesperson.

Look at Guy's timeline today. He has tweeted that the EP will refuse to approve any form of Withdrawal Agreement without the Backstop in it. How the hell does he know? It's supposed to be a vote. But democracy never works properly in the EU.
Even the Parliament - the only quasi-democratic institute in the whole rotten Union - is controlled, co-ordinated and centrally managed by the political groups. Guy knows which way the EP will vote because he and few of his buddies control the EP.

This man hold the interests and the well-being of 500 million in his hands. He is a key player in a set of extremely important international negotiations. All because his fringe party, in a small state, lost an election. And because three other blokes decided he should be.
Try and think about this from the point of view of a French agricultural worker or a German manufacturing worker. In what credible democratic sense does Guy speak for them? How the hell does he know whether they want a backstop or not? Try to follow the democratic chain?
If you cannot follow the democratic links in the chain from the people to the representative, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY. If you cannot comprehend, or even ascertain, the process by which the representative obtains his power, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

If you cannot conceive of a possible democratic method by which the representative can be removed, censured or otherwise controlled by the electorate, IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY. What is a Spanish worker supposed to do to replace Guy? Where should she start? Who does she protest to?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:54
  #3443 (permalink)  
 
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Fully agree on a shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU. Now, by leaving, having nothing more to do with it,how do you propose we reform it?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:17
  #3444 (permalink)  
 
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So it's damage then? We agree on something. It's damaging to the UK & you support it. I find that bizarre. Presumably you have no love for the country if that's the case. Any patriot would seek to add to the sum of strength of the place. Not you though.
yep damage to the EU and damage to the relationship that the UK has with the EU if it now decided to remain in. And it won't change.

See that's it the remains really don't seem to give a toss about the entity they want to remain in. All they care about is the getting their own way in the UK. If they actually cared about the EU and its survival I wouldn't expect to see this torturing and preventing them moving forward with their required federal Europe plan.
The economic damage has already been done to several member states by things progressing this far. Half of it is UK and the other half the EU and their bluff campaign to try and reverse UK leaving. But now the ECJ says the UK can cancel and keep everything it had before that's screwed things more than a Prince in a Landrover.

I can't really see how the UK could continue to work inside the EU now anyway. Everything is going to be a clash. The UK won't get what it wants and the superstate supporting members won't get what they want.

Thanks to lownSlow my suspicions have been confirmed its just a good excuse to announce the reflagging and Dubai ports had been doing it anyway with the rest of PnO fleet. Airbus statement turns out to have been requested by Hammond.

All this nonsense has been going on for two years, we were told repeatedly in other threads that a week was a long time in politics, a month a life time. Nearly two years now and the only thing that has changed is that this summer agricultural orders and tourist bookings are royally screwed and it looks like there will be a recession this summer.

Last edited by tescoapp; 25th Jan 2019 at 14:46.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:38
  #3445 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]Fully agree on a shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU. Now, by leaving, having nothing more to do with it,how do you propose we reform it?/QUOTE]

IMO there is absolutely no way you can reform it. It is rotten all the way through its very construction. it would be impossible to change it into a transparent, democratic entity. The thin veneer of democracy is being lifted just enough for people to see where the power really is in the EU machine, and it is worse than anyone realises.
Best get out while we can.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:04
  #3446 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
??? They're getting out of dodge & joining an ever lengthening line of others doing the same.
"???"

Not sure what you mean. I was making the point the P&O Cruises was not the company involved.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:05
  #3447 (permalink)  
 
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Not exactly a vote of confidence in British exceptionalism. Quitters in more than one sense. As LBJ once said, better in the tent pissing out than out the tent pissing in,
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:11
  #3448 (permalink)  
 
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To be more accurate, is it better to be in the tent getting pissed on from those within, or to be out, getting showered and cleaned up?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:17
  #3449 (permalink)  
 
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Our membership is the most bespoke of all. Our opt outs & voting success give lie to that idea. It's possible to hate on the thing until the cows come home, once you start to examine the detail of it, the view becomes unsustainable. Nip has a point, what you're saying, not so much.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:27
  #3450 (permalink)  
 
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Literally millions disagree!!
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:13
  #3451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Cambridge - fastest growing city in Europe
And around 2/3 of the people in my office are EU27 citizens.

Now the company has said that it will cover all the costs of making sure these can stay and, potentially a much bigger deal, make sure we can hire new people as necessary to continue to operate. But I have trouble believing that the management haven't considered the much simpler and cheaper alternative of just ramping up the use made of offshore contractors.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:19
  #3452 (permalink)  
 
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[COLOR=left=#626262]'They just asked for money to invest in Filton, this threat is not credible', says Jack Lopresti[/COLOR]

So, the day before Mr Enders' speech about Airbus leaving the UK, Airbus were in meetings looking to get funding from the UK to expand the plant in Filton. Hmmm which is it to be Mr Enders??

Airbus Brexit threat not credible

Last edited by LowNSlow; 25th Jan 2019 at 16:30.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:37
  #3453 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
[color=left=#626262]'They just asked for money to invest in Filton, this threat is not credible', says Jack Lopresti[/color]

So, the day before Mr Enders' speech about Airbus leaving the UK, Airbus were in meetings looking to get funding from the UK to expand the plant in Filton. Hmmm which is it to be Mr Enders??

Airbus Brexit threat not credible
How is that in any way conflicting with their statement? On the contrary it supports it.
Brexit will increase the costs of maintaining or expanding the wings operation in the UK. Airbus are hoping for cash from the UK government/taxpayer to keep it here. Just like Honda, they want bribes to stay here. One more cost of Brexit

​​​​​​
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:42
  #3454 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Longtail View Post
Literally millions disagree!!
I'm afraid that is a logical fallacy. Popularity has no bearing on validity. If it were so, the sun would be revolving around the earth to accommodate the belief held by so many for so long.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:44
  #3455 (permalink)  
 
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TheNip: Many thanks for that contribution. When I came to vote in 2016, the situation described in your post was exactly the reason I eventually chose 'Leave'. I decided the democratic deficit in the EU and its operations et al was too high a price to pay for the sake of holidays in the EU without visas or hiring low cost agricultural workers etc. I felt the old EEC was not too bad and I had no gripe against EU workers coming to and from the UK. As I say, all too high a price to pay. Prior to the referendum, I remember Cameron going to Europe in order to try and get the EU to address some of the issues that bothered me and many others. He was told by the EU megalomaniacs to sod off. Parapunter: I believe this answers your point in your post #3444 above. We tried it.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:45
  #3456 (permalink)  
 
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Brexit will increase the costs of maintaining or expanding the wings operation in the UK.
How will this increase in costs come about?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:51
  #3457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Parapunter: I believe this answers your point in your post #3444 above. We tried it.
I don't think so. You've chosen a very narrow band of benefits to dispose of. I would refer you to this,

Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
This is what is so unsatisfying about Brexit supporters. There is no real debate of ideas, of thought processes, just a shape shifting set of inadequacies that manifest themselves continually in various forms of half baked wilfully ignorant miasmas of reasoning - 'If that's the price to pay' being a great example. Andrew knows I'm talking about one week, he knows the news flows in only one direction & will continue to do so, he knows implicitly that his cherished exit is a disaster, but can't possibly disinvest the large amount of ego tied up in it. It would be far too humiliating to do so, and therefore, the dogmatic insistence continues, people like me come along to poke holes in the flimsy arguments, they regroup, try again & it goes round & round. Same with this. P&O explicitly stated they're flagging out to minimise Brexit disruption & here's Tesco missing the point on purpose by a country mile.

No one who voted leave can be held responsible for their actions. No one who voted leave & still believes in it can be taken seriously.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:07
  #3458 (permalink)  
 
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in your opinion....

Leave supporters really don't care about your satisfaction level or for that matter if you take us seriously. In fact remain supporters have done more to ensure a default exit in the last two years and damage to the Eu than leave supporters have.

To be realistic there is no debate with you.. you are right and we should remain and nothing can be said to convince you otherwise. Mind you likewise the same is for leave supporters as well. Only difference is we will get what we want on the 29th of March.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:31
  #3459 (permalink)  
 
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Parapunter: Wait a minute. The post to which I referred said this:
Fully agree on a shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU. Now, by leaving, having nothing more to do with it,how do you propose we reform it?
And my comment to you referred to exactly this point. Cameron went to meet the EU, allegedly trying to get reforms and returned empty handed. Thus showing that attempts at reform from within have been tried and they failed.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:44
  #3460 (permalink)  
 
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[color=left=#000000]Fully agree on a shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU.[/color]
Right there is another good reason to leave and stop paying for the ever increasing control by the EU management as part of their shameful democratic deficit in the machinery of the EU, which will get worse as they head towards further unification of European countries within the EU.
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