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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 18th Jan 2019, 19:32
  #3101 (permalink)  
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The Irish free ports were handed back to the Republic in....... 1939......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 19:44
  #3102 (permalink)  
 
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The argument has been around since the ref result came in.

Thanks to Gina it's got overtaken because it went through parliament and had all the democracy boxes ticked to make it legal.

So it doesn't change anything now if it gets deemed not to be fairly conducted. If she had left things as they were and the government had issued art 50 without it be signed off by the house then remain could now have forced then to cancel. But as it went through the house thanks to her it's bullet proof.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 20:35
  #3103 (permalink)  
 
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I see that BoJo's lies about Turkey have been caught out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 20:55
  #3104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I see that BoJo's lies about Turkey have been caught out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
On an obscure corner of a web site that you and I read, but this will be seen by how many of the people who heard the original lie?
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 20:57
  #3105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
On an obscure corner of a web site that you and I read, but this will be seen by how many of the people who heard the original lie?
A bit late now if they acted on the lies when they voted.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 21:20
  #3106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Indeed with the stock market soaring, the pound strengthening, and things going down the hole.
Shurely shome mishtake! April 2015 FTSE 7070, Close of business tonight 6968. So £1000 invested almost four years ago would now be worth £985.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 21:38
  #3107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I never quite understood why that didn't happen in WWII. The lives lost in the invasion and occupation would have been more than outweighed by those saved by having increased air cover for the north Atlantic convoys, no?
Get real.

In Irish War of Indpendence there were circa 20,000 soldiers in Cork alone and they weren't able to keep control. Invade and you have a whole population against you who will sabotage everything and what would be the outcome ?

Could always resort to the actions of the Black and Tans so you have some ports with 100,000 dead, lots on concentration camps, zero cooperation and London confiscating food for export just like a seminal event in Ireland 100 years before. How many soldiers would have it required ? 100,000 or more plus how many would die ?

Net outcome is that US support evaporates as Irish Americans make sure UK gets zero aid.

Admiralty were very clear that having Irish "Treaty" ports would have made little difference because they would have been required to have thousands of men and tonnes of equipment sent to defend them for very little gain.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 21:40
  #3108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Interesting point. I would have to get maps out to check that, but the flying boat bases were in the North and I don't know if the South could have have been better. As for cutting the corner this was tacitly accepted.

Of course to deny the Germans an Atlantic base we did invade Iceland and Faroe.
There was a flying boat base for civilian transatlantic traffic at Foynes Estuary in the River Shannon.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 21:46
  #3109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The Irish free ports were handed back to the Republic in....... 1939......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)
1938.......
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 22:21
  #3110 (permalink)  
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The London market might have closed up tonight but that's mainly on the back of rumours that China and the US are not going to have a trade war.
Mind you though, if you want to see what falling markets can look like, have a glance at he CAC40 or the Dax over the last year. The FTSE is doing well in comparison and don't forget that the full weight of any Brexit has not yet been felt on either of those two European indices whereas Project Fear has, to a certain extent, already been written into the FTSE's fall. Be under no illusions, Britain is not as much a basket case as the BBC or the Remainers would have you believe. It might not be the land of hope and glory that the Brexiteers imagined but it'll do a lot better without the likes of Amazon and Starbucks than Amazon and Starbucks will do without Britain.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 22:54
  #3111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Gipsy Q, Maybe you might explain just how a GE might resolve this issue. First of all The Maybot isn't going to lead The Tories into it, so that raises the big question of who is. It's difficult at the moment to see them choosing a candidate that unites their party. In fact it is difficult to see them ending up with one that doesn't split it asunder, maybe you might like to nominate a unity candidate, Dominic Grieve, or The saintly Jacob?

Then we have the problem of Old Corby. He isn't going to cut it either. So it is quite possible that we leap out of the Maybot frying pan into a fire tended by somebody equally bad, if not worse. This is one of those situations aptly summed up by the weary traveller who draws up beside the gnarled and not too bright Norfolk country yokel to ask directions only to be told. "Blust bor, you're miles off..I wouldn't start from here."
I imagine that the rude yokel would be unable to conceive of a starting position so ridiculous as our current "here". A couple of years ago, we wouldn't either!

I accept what you say. I think I suggested rather than stated that the purpose of the GE was to clear the stables of the existing runners so that a fresh membership with fresh leadership might view this whole sorry process from different and less tribal perspectives. Of course, if the Commons continued to be populated by the usual suspects, then the exercise would be worthless. I advanced the notion only because I cannot see any other device likely to be as effective but readily admit that having to choose between May and Corbyn really is no choice at all. One is a terrifyingly bad dream, the other a catastrophic nightmare.

The Tory servants of the Establishment often have behaved stupidly but what could be more crass than Hammond's conference call with the representatives of big (and frequently international) business? It becomes clear from this that this government is exasperatingly similar to the Wilson/Callaghan administrations; the difference being that the government then was in thrall to the unions, now it's the CBI. Substantially they are the same thing but from opposing ends of the political spectrum - neither represents the mainstream of opinion nor national aspiration. Wilson gave us an in/out vote in 1974; this was a plebiscite which did little more than confirm a national consensus which already had been reached, both within the political classes and the nation at large.There wasn't a great deal of dispute at this stage. Cameron's referendum was called for different (and wrong) reasons - not for the purpose of genuine debate about the country's future but as a cynical exercise in political opportunism. It backfired and he ran away from his responsibilities; it is from that sad point that we have failed to evolve. It is Cameron - who never amounted to anything beyond a lightweight wannabe - and his successors failing to make any provision for the possibility of a Leave outcome that has led us to this parlous condition. And now Hammond openly declares that he has curtailed any further financial contributions to the preparation for a "no deal" exit. He should be banged up in the Tower.

Just as Cameron abdicated responsibility for setting the referendum in motion, leaving it to the "people" to make the decisions which he ducked, so the Maybot has done the same, but in her case the vote was not taken from a position of stability such as existed in 1976, but with a fractious Party, Parliament and discontented populace - the populace and Parliament were unhappy for different reasons which has just added another ingredient in this awful recipe. Instituting this "direct democracy" is nothing other than a display of cowardice.

Wishing a plague on both houses doesn't help us much.



PM Rob - thank you.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 00:42
  #3112 (permalink)  
 
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Theresa May was one of the most unpopular but longest serving Home Secretaries in history. She was appointed Prime Minister to take the flak for Brexit so that other aspiring leaders in the Tory party could take power unsullied by the fall out from Brexit. The snap election decision was either a stroke of genius or a serious miscalculation but the Conservative Party managed to retain a grip on government by bribing the DUP. The PM has since weathered a direct challenge to her leadership,from within her own party and a vote of no confidence in the government. Obdurate is probably the best one word description I can think of to describe her.

After two years of turmoil, what will change in the next 70 days? The EU is not really interested in making a deal with the UK unless they can hold us over a barrel and keep us there indefinately. Despite the protestations of the project fear camp, the UK is more than capable of weathering the storm. When you are in the top ten of the World's most successful nations by any metric you care to use Brexit isn't going to be a disaster.

A similar situation might be if California decided to go it alone, separate from the rest of the USA. Proposterous as this may seem, large parts of the US administration is paralysed by a dispute of 5 billiion dollars for a border fence. California alone is having to fork out 30 billion dollars for the wild fire damage that wiped out the city of Paradise.

There are costs associated with Brexit, but from the UK's point of view, it is cheaper in the long run to leave the EU than to remain. As for trade deals, or the absence of them. EU rules prevent the UK from signing up to anything until after we have left.

As the boss of Nissan pointed out, many components used in the UK manufacturing plants are supplied from Japan, which is not in the EU. When the UK leaves the EU, the same supply routes will still be used but EU tariffs will no linge apply. It will not necessarily be better, but neither will it be worse. Things will be different and perhaps not initially operating at optimum efficiency, but time and financial considerations will smooth out the bumps.

People are naturally reluctant to embrace change and are fearful for the unknown and unpredictable future, something which project fear has readily exploited. Leaving the EU should be welcomed as a chance for the UK to take full advantage of an ability to trade with the whole World rather than a subset of countries nearby. We will also get to keep our foreign earnings rather than sharing them across Europe in bailouts and multinational projects (unless we want to). Once out of the EU it is up to everyone in the UK to make Brexit a success or failure, because we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Finally, don't blame the politicians for getting us into this position, you elected them!
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 03:34
  #3113 (permalink)  
 
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It was a couple of nights ago on the BBC politics show that both Alistair Campbell and Nigel Farage were on the panel. I doubt that very many people are supporters of both but I have to say that the level of debate between them, which was never short of civilised btw, showed the real paucity of our current political leadership. The Maybot continues her circular hectoring whilst Corbyn misses even the most obvious open goal. Had he accepted her invitation to talk he could have walked out declaring that she was devoid of new ideas and totally inflexible and maybe gained at least some political advantage. Instead he went to Hastings and preached to the converted who looked like a bunch of out of touch superannuated hippies.

Back on BBC QT Diane Abbott proceeded to lop another couple of percentage points off Labour's poll ratings while Rory "nice but dim" Stewart did his best to put them on again by a slavish display of worshipping the gormless Maybot.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 05:07
  #3114 (permalink)  
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Interesting research that shows the public, if not enrhoisiastic, could live with a Norway++ deal.

It makes the caveat that those polled ere not told the deal would include the four freedoms. I would add that, as with any deal, the EU would also insist in a permanent backstop clause being included in case the UK should ever attempt to exit the arrangement.

As with any alternate deal, the devil is in the details.

Would a Norway option break the Brexit stalemate? Here's what new polling tells us
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 05:16
  #3115 (permalink)  
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The Maybot continues her circular hectoring whilst Corbyn misses even the most obvious open goal. Had he accepted her invitation to talk he could have walked out declaring that she was devoid of new ideas and totally inflexible and maybe gained at least some political advantage. Instead he went to Hastings and preached to the converted who looked like a bunch of out of touch superannuated hippies.
Very firmly tongue in cheek, but Hugo Rifkind’s “My Week” sketch in The Times today seems to cover the point well.....

“.....Jeremy Corbyn
Of course I’m not ruling out a second referendum. I’m just saying that, if you want one, then it’s pretty clear you should vote for us in an election we’re not going to get and support our manifesto which will say we’re not going to have one. Otherwise you’re a Tory........

Keir Starmer
“Seriously,” I say to Jeremy. “I don’t understand the strategy. The public doesn’t understand why you won’t talk to her. This whole Brexit debate is happening without us. What on earth makes you think you’ll be able to claim in the future that you were present but not involved?”

Jeremy just stares at me.

“Oh wait,” I say. “I’ve just got this.”........
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 05:17
  #3116 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I see that BoJo's lies about Turkey have been caught out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
Yep, perfect irony really......Boris surrounded by JCB's and digging a very deep hole for himself in the interview......also mentioned was one M.Gove......but no surprise there as we know.

Here's Boris doing his stand up comedian impression in front of a rapt audience .....

https://www.channel4.com/news/boris-...gration-claims
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 05:58
  #3117 (permalink)  
 
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He did say he would lie in front of a bulldozer & yesterday he did just that for forty minutes... With thanks to Tom Peck.

Unbelievable that so many are willing to behave in such a one eyed fashion overlooking the continual lies in pursuit of their dreams. I couldn't look in the mirror were that me.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 06:33
  #3118 (permalink)  
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https://www.ft.com/content/901f95fe-...4-d150b3105d21

UK can delay Brexit without holding Europe elections, say lawyers
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 06:46
  #3119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post


As the boss of Nissan pointed out, many components used in the UK manufacturing plants are supplied from Japan, which is not in the EU.

At risk of further accusations of this or that from the terminally convinced, I'm here once again to pull a poster on inaccuracies & tin foil hattery.



It's a pity you don't quantify 'many'. I can only surmise you don't know the numbers or possibly less likely, you do but don't want to spell it out. Well I do. In the case of Nissan, since you brought Ghosn up, it imports 85% of all components used at Sunderland from Europe. They come here unimpeded by customs checks or non tariff barriers because they originate in the single market.

Of the remaining 15% of the FIVE MILLION parts that arrive daily, ~10% come from elsewhere than Japan. So if you're going to come here & proffer cast iron forecasts of our future, you had better be sure of your numbers or I & others will judge the value accordingly. While you're doing this, a crash course on tier 1 & 2 suppliers in the automotive manufacturing supply chain would help enormously.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 07:17
  #3120 (permalink)  
 
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Re Mrs May's term as Home Sec, here's a shocking example of how her legacy is still being felt: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-46927791
I often find myself wondering what happened to her formative years as a vicar's daughter. Her immigration policies show a complete abandonment of any so called Christian" qualities.
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