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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 11th Jan 2019, 10:27
  #2701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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The EU refused to give us any further special deals when Cameron tried, because it would break their charters. All they have done since is to maintain that very clear position. They have not 'crushed' Brexit The only people responsible for disappointment over Brexit are those who promised it would be different.
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True, but that won't stop the Express in particular, but also the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Star and online outlets like Guido peddling the "EU was unreasonable", "EU bullies" etc arguments that will carry weight with the gullible.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 16:19
  #2702 (permalink)  
 
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The only people responsible for disappointment over Brexit are those who promised it would be different.
Even Mrs May said at the beginning "out means out" not half out or maybe a little bit in. Just out!. Lets get on with it.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 16:48
  #2703 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
The only people responsible for disappointment over Brexit are those who promised it would be different.
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Unfortunately the leavers were over ruled by Mrs Remainer.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 17:12
  #2704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It was clear from the start that there could never be a satisfactory deal over Brexit, and many of us said so.
Similar thoughts previously posted. I voted remain but remain lost. I fully expected that we would leave immediately as it was a binary choice. We then handed the project over to politicians to deliver. What followed was par for the course when politics takes over a task. Two years of practical preparations wasted. I still contend we would be in a better position now if we had just left the day after the referendum vote and negotiated any deals from that standpoint.

After 40 years in the construction industry, I am used to occasionally losing bids and tenders to companies who will obviously fail to deliver the project then being asked back by the client to help deliver the failing project with all the additional costs and time. Brexit looks familiar.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 20:00
  #2705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
Similar thoughts previously posted. I voted remain but remain lost. I fully expected that we would leave immediately as it was a binary choice. We then handed the project over to politicians to deliver. What followed was par for the course when politics takes over a task. Two years of practical preparations wasted. I still contend we would be in a better position now if we had just left the day after the referendum vote and negotiated any deals from that standpoint.
Exactly, but without my "windy verbiage"!

Sallyann, at the risk of seeming simplistic, historically in British politics, there have been two main schools of argument with each one seeking to prevail and subsequently form a government. Brexit has changed this pattern by introducing a third element - the government itself. It seems to me that much of the ire that is directed by Remainers towards Leavers and vice versa is misplaced and principally should be directed against the government specifically and politicians generally. Anyway, I believe your questions deserve a response so I'll do my best.

Firstly, my understanding of Brexit is that which has been defined so often - we leave without any conditions other than those affecting our financial responsibilities. It is neither more nor less than that.

Secondly, I don't blame the EU for "crushing" Brexit. I agree with you; I think that the EU probably has acted correctly in its own interests and why shouldn't it? The total farce masquerading as "negotiations" has been created by our own wholly incompetent government. The EU has been instrumental in our humiliation of course, but we have been the author of our own misfortunes. It was not Leavers who promised a "better deal" - Leavers never contemplated a deal of any sort. It was the government who invented all the unnecessary complications which have conspired to trip them up. As Grayfly has said, the choice was binary and therefore did not admit of all the qualifications like Canada ++, Noway + Matabeleland - and the rest of the fudges introduced to impede the progress of what was a simple choice. As you correctly have mentioned, the EU's hands largely have been tied by their own constitutional framework. "Call me Dave" was unlikely to achieve much (and I suspect he didn't try very hard anyway) - Maggie was a great deal more effective.

However, Leavers did promise a brighter future but that idea has been scotched so what happens now is anyone's guess.

Sufficiently succinct, Parapunter?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:17
  #2706 (permalink)  
 
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How could anyone possibly believe that you could just walk away from something that entailed a complicated legal framework the next day? Had that have happened we really would have dropped off a cliff edge. Everything relying upon any kind of legislation would just have stopped dead. The lack of awareness of what we are dealing with is just breathtaking.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:44
  #2707 (permalink)  
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The difference between Britain's discombobulated Brexit process and the rather dignified and completely united EU Brexit process is easily enough explained. The Europeans regarded the exercise as a war and fought an all out action which they are about to win. Britain is destroyed as a country of European relevance and her international standing greatly reduced. Europe has demonstrated the power of its unity, if only to itself and further federalism is a certainty. Next time a country rebels, the EU will be in a position to send in its own troops.
Throughout history, treaties have been broken and 'illegal' positions taken by countries in order to further their own advantage. That, unfortunately for the next generation in the UK and probably the next one after it, is not what happened here. Irrespective of the actual outcome in the weeks and months ahead, the British parliament fought a very poor war and it arrives at the end, sans victoire and with far too much Schadenfreude
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:48
  #2708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
However, Leavers did promise a brighter future but that idea has been scotched so what happens now is anyone's guess.
Thank you for answering my questions. I am happy to endorse your last comment.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:50
  #2709 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
The difference between Britain's discombobulated Brexit process and the rather dignified and completely united EU Brexit process is easily enough explained. The Europeans regarded the exercise as a war and fought an all out action which they are about to win.
Nah, they just asked us politely "what do you want?". They're still waiting for a sensible answer.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:51
  #2710 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
The difference between Britain's discombobulated Brexit process and the rather dignified and completely united EU Brexit process is easily enough explained. The Europeans regarded the exercise as a war and fought an all out action which they are about to win.
Absolute nonsense. There was no war to be fought.
We walked out the door, and they closed it behind us. End of story.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 22:53
  #2711 (permalink)  
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I rather thought that leavers said Britain would be better out of Europe while remainers said the country would be better left in the EU. It remains to be seen which will be which but the inevitable conclusion is that at best neither side has won anything but the most pyrrhic of victories.

Repetitive use of the word nonsense in conversation is ironically oxymoronic.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 06:09
  #2712 (permalink)  

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Britain is a major European country, and as such should be a part of the EU.
So is Poland (& etc,)
Turkey is not, and shouldn't.

Mac
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 08:11
  #2713 (permalink)  
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https://www.politico.eu/article/port...l-contingency/

Portugal to welcome Brits even without Brexit deal

LISBON — Portugal’s government on Friday laid out proposals to protect rights of British citizens living in the country if there’s a no-deal Brexit but made clear it expects similar treatment for the around 300,000 Portuguese living in Britain. “We are deciding these things unilaterally and we expect the United Kingdom to respond in the same way,” said Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva, announcing contingency plans to be applied if Britain crashes out of the European Union without a deal.

The plans aim to minimize disruption for British citizens living in Portugal and the millions who visit as tourists, said Santos Silva and Interior Minister Eduardo Cabrita. “The British are welcome in Portugal as residents, as tourists, as investors, as students. We hope they will continue to come and stay in Portugal,” Cabrita said.

In 2017, 22,431 Brits were registered as permanent residents in Portugal, according to data from the immigration service. However, British Embassy officials estimate the real number living in the country at around 45,000. The Portuguese government and the embassy are running awareness campaigns to get Brits to register before Brexit day on March 29. “In case of a no-deal scenario … the guarantee to acquire the right of permanent residence would only apply to UK nationals who are resident in Portugal before 29 March,” says a new government pamphlet. The official number of resident Brits rose 15 percent in 2017, suggesting many are heeding the advice. Cabrita said extra immigration officers are being sent to facilitate registration in the southern Algarve coast, Madeira island and other areas popular with Brits.

Cabrita said the around 3 million British tourists arriving each year in Portugal would not be subjected to visa restrictions even if there is no Brexit deal. Efforts will be made to minimize hold-ups at airports once the British are no longer EU citizens.

Beyond residency and travel rights, the ministers expressed hope that migrants in both countries would be able to maintain unfettered access to public health systems and social security rights, and that academic qualifications would remain recognized. British Prime Minister Theresa May laid out similar assurances for EU citizens living in Britain in a no-deal policy paper released in December, but not yet formally adopted.

Despite Brexit, Britain remains the most popular destination for Portuguese leaving their country, with 23,000 heading there in 2017, although that represents a fall of 26 percent on the previous year.

The government is due to present further plans on the economic impact of a no-deal next week. However, Santos Silva said he was still hopeful of a change of heart by British lawmakers that would lead to approval of the agreement May struck with EU leaders for an orderly Brexit.

“We don’t want to put this contingency plan into action,” he told reporters. “We hope the agreement comes into force and all this work becomes useless.”

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Old 12th Jan 2019, 09:12
  #2714 (permalink)  
 
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Mac, Russia is a country in Europe, should she be a part of the EU?
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 09:20
  #2715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
How could anyone possibly believe that you could just walk away from something that entailed a complicated legal framework the next day? Had that have happened we really would have dropped off a cliff edge. Everything relying upon any kind of legislation would just have stopped dead. The lack of awareness of what we are dealing with is just breathtaking.
That's certainly a question to be asked of the political classes who dreamed up the referendum and the question in the first place. However, a significant number of the voting population supported the contention that walking away from complicated legal frameworks was perfectly possible and indeed would be good for us.

Every industry and business in this country is compelled to produce risk management procedures yet we let people with no ability or experience and sometimes doubtful intelligence to run our country. Time to change the selection procedures for people seeking election to office.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 09:26
  #2716 (permalink)  
 
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Britain is a major European country, and as such should be a part of the EU.
So is Poland (& etc,)
Turkey is not, and shouldn't.

Mac
UK is a part of the continent of Europe, and should play a major part in its decision making. Unfortunately, Charles de Gaulle with his different (Napolenic) vision of a Europe controlled by France (he accepted the industrial strength of a divided Germany would be needed) kept us out until the present structure was in place, when we joined what we were sold as a trading partnership. Successive treaties have steadily eroded our Constitution, without consultation.

Yes, UK should be (and will continue to be, by geographical imperative) a part of the Continent. How we play that part is under discussion.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 09:30
  #2717 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
a significant number of the voting population supported the contention that walking away from complicated legal frameworks was perfectly possible and indeed would be good for us..
And they were completely wrong about that. Anecdotally, the number of hard leavers around here who regularly dismiss a no deal exit ass minor disruption & are over 65 is noticeable. These guys think they have no skin in the game but they're wrong about that too.

However, moving on from the partisanship of the debate, what we have seen is politicians of all stripes throwing red meat at their bases, naked attempts to garner support, the by product being polarisation over an issue I would wager 90% of people never dwelt upon to any great degree ten years ago. We are led by moral & intellectual midgets, frightened by & consequently complicit with a press who have spent decades distorting reality to the satisfaction of their various owners. What a pickle it's brought us to.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 09:57
  #2718 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
We are led by moral & intellectual midgets, frightened by & consequently complicit with a press who have spent decades distorting reality to the satisfaction of their various owners. What a pickle it's brought us to.
I thought the majority of those you are referring to are remain supporters.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 10:12
  #2719 (permalink)  
 
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You neatly make my point for me. Thanks.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 10:20
  #2720 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
You neatly make my point for me. Thanks.
No problem, I had forgotten to add that I agree with your assessment of the countries political and business leadership qualities, and that is regardless of which side of the fence they sit, or on it, as the case may be, even if the majority are remain leaning.
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