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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 8th Jan 2019, 15:49
  #2521 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I have absolutely of doubt that the Channel 4 drama was "sexed up" fir TV. I have absolutely no doubt either that the campaign focused on the dismally dim, that was where the money is.
The problem I had with it was it was so well written & so well played by Benedict Cumberbatch to the extent that he came across as some form of Sherlock Holmes, Rainman figure seeing things as no one else can & therefore, portraying it so leave won as a direct outcome of his singular genius, rather than through the use of criminal methods, which we know full well, took place. The issue was never could they, it was should they?
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 15:54
  #2522 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Parapunter.

It is true there are ongoing investigations of alleged collusion. The operative word is 'alleged'.

It is also true that

a) there has been no similar official action or investigation into the documented sharing of finance and data among advocates on the leave side.

b) The allegations are of exceeding allowed spending limits by the Leave faction, while the millions spent by HM Government, and use of its databases by the Remain faction are apparently irrelevant.

It might strike an impartial observer as being somewhat unbalanced.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 15:55
  #2523 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Rees-Mog says Leave had the working class. That's not quite true, they had the uneducated and gullible class.

What a totally ignorant, arrogant statement.

17.4 million uneducated and gullible people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:02
  #2524 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vctenderness View Post
What a totally ignorant, arrogant statement.

17.4 million uneducated and gullible people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Wrong. That is your own false interpretation of what was actually said.
The uneducated and gullible people were only a small minority, not the whole 17.4 million. But that minority was enough to swing the result.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:05
  #2525 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe my post was a bit too subtle, a bit like the Brexit bus. Nowhere did I argue that every Leave voter was a dimwit, only that the exploitation of the dimwit cohort swung it for Leave.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:07
  #2526 (permalink)  
 
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Sally, you beat me to it. Maybe supports my argument that you, as a Remainer, can spot it.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:08
  #2527 (permalink)  
 
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56% of voters aged 50-64 voted leave, and 44% of that age group voted remain,
61% of those aged over 65 voted leave, and 39% of that age group voted remain,
44% of those aged 25-49 voted leave, and 56% of that age group voted remain,
25% of those aged 18-24 voted leave, and 75% of that age group voted remain,

By any mathematical assessment there must be an equal percentage of remain voters that fit the usual description of leave voters, so one would assume that, percentage wise, there are just as many ignorant and gullible people on the remain side, and as such the percentage win for leave would not have changed.

Unless the remain side are stating categorically that the voting demographic was in fact all those who voted leave are wholly ignorant and gullible and those who voted remain are wholly intelligent and have working crystal balls, in which case if they are, the description of being arrogant and ignorant would fit nicely, as an aside I think the biggest percentage of gullible people are on the remain side and that is only from reading their postings across various media sites, obviously I cannot prove that anymore than remain can disprove it.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:09
  #2528 (permalink)  
 
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As you say....all that was needed was to persuade enough who voted that the current state of e.g. the NHS and that the lack of any apparent control on immigration was nothing to do with Westminster was solely down to the EU and “Brussels” and bingo......you’ve swung the vote...


BTW going back to some of the comments earlier, this from of the Daily Mail..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nded-Nazi.html
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:09
  #2529 (permalink)  
 
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Whereas there are a large number of the gullible Remain faction who still believe that project fear was true - not all the misinformation was one sided.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:17
  #2530 (permalink)  
 
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That is incorrect for the following reason: VoteLeave and Cambridge Analytica identified targets via social media. Algorithms were capable of selecting non voters to target. Now I would argue that these previous non voters probably comprised the less educated. As such they were fertile ground for this type of operation. Remain couldn't target people because by definition they don't exist in the way potential Leave voters did. It was a brilliant campaign, although probably not a legitimate one.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:18
  #2531 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Rees-Mog says Leave had the working class. That's not quite true, they had the uneducated and gullible class.


Fascinating, so if the so called educated and none gullible were therefore amongst your "remain" voters, how comes this educated mass cannot understand the basics of democracy and keep asking for a second referrendum?
Surely these educated people that should at least be able to get a grasp off the reality of the vote, its democratic consequences and as much as it goes against their beliefs, uphold the result..

And can these people not see that if the second was held and it went the other way, would there now not be a precedent to hold a third...and a forth?
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:23
  #2532 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
As you say....all that was needed was to persuade enough who voted that the current state of e.g. the NHS and that the lack of any apparent control on immigration was nothing to do with Westminster was solely down to the EU and “Brussels” and bingo......you’ve swung the vote...

Indeed. The leave campaign's method was to persuade the disenchanted and aggrieved with government that it was all the EU's fault.
And after we have left and 'taken back control' we will be told that the resulting mess is still the EU's fault.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:26
  #2533 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Now I would argue that these previous non voters probably comprised the less educated. As such they were fertile ground for this type of operation. Remain couldn't target people because by definition they don't exist in the way potential Leave voters did. It was a brilliant campaign, although probably not a legitimate one.

So your saying that remain campaigners could not target these non voters, but leave campaigners could, if they did not exist how could the leave side target them and remain could not, so even if that premise is correct I still don't get the inference that those previous non voters therefore voted leave, surely some must of seen some media on project fear and voted remain.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:35
  #2534 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
So your saying that remain campaigners could not target these non voters, but leave campaigners could, if they did not exist how could the leave side target them and remain could not, so even if that premise is correct I still don't get the inference that those previous non voters therefore voted leave, surely some must of seen some media on project fear and voted remain.
The whole point of the data mining and targeting was that it found people who were NOT engaged in current affairs or reading the campaign news.
The leave campaign were clever enough to use these methods: the remain campaign weren't.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:38
  #2535 (permalink)  
 
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This is hard work! VoteLeave identified a voter cohort that suited their purpose. I.e. A section of the electorate not normally engaged with the political process who could be persuaded that the EU was the source of all their troubles. In the way that bad news always plays better it wasn't possible to persuade these people that the EU were in fact their benefactors. The trend to be people who have not enjoyed great success in their lives for the very reason that they don't have high levels of education. They are largely people of humble means who feel themselves exploited .(Which they are) Fertile ground to persuade to vote against what they see as The Establishment.

In most cases their "establishment" often consists of no more than their teachers who talked down to them and middle class people in general. I know many people of this type, they are not bad people at heart, many of them are generous of spirit but put something like the EU in front of them and it takes very little to persuade them that this is their enemy.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:40
  #2536 (permalink)  
 
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Once again Sally...we must have brains running on parallel tracks!
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:42
  #2537 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Once again Sally...we must have brains running on parallel tracks!
We just see what is patently obvious.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:44
  #2538 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
The whole point of the data mining and targeting was that it found people who were NOT engaged in current affairs or reading the campaign news.
The leave campaign were clever enough to use these methods: the remain campaign weren't.
Oh, so now there are clever people on the leave side, I thought they were all on the remain side, how ironic that the clever people were on the leave side prior to the referendum and now they are not post the result

Another take on a previous comment:
As you say, all that needed was to persuade enough people that if they voted leave the UK would crash and burn economically, become one of the bottom three economies in the world, an emergency budget would be introduced, taxes would go up, NHS would collapse etc etc, and it was all because the UK cannot function without the EU running things for us, and bingo you have swung the vote … oh wait no you didn’t, maybe the exit voters were not as gullible after all.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:46
  #2539 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Hi Parapunter.

It is true there are ongoing investigations of alleged collusion. The operative word is 'alleged'.

It is also true that

a) there has been no similar official action or investigation into the documented sharing of finance and data among advocates on the leave side.

b) The allegations are of exceeding allowed spending limits by the Leave faction, while the millions spent by HM Government, and use of its databases by the Remain faction are apparently irrelevant.

It might strike an impartial observer as being somewhat unbalanced.
If you can find an impartial observer, then please let them know. It isn't you though, Taking your points as presented, no one, least of all me has suggested the offences are anything other than alleged.

Onto the ABC's

a) I think you mean remain? There are no allegations against anyone in the remain campaign. HTH.

b) No they are not. The allegations are that Bank's funding is from impermissible sources. You are confusing the issue with leave overspends. On the issue of HMG spends, the much proffered £9m leaflet broke no rules, as much as those on the winning side may hate that, it is nonetheless true.
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:48
  #2540 (permalink)  
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I reckon there's some really potentially world class glider pilots here on JB....gliders, you may recall, apart from ridge soaring or wave soaring, also tend to go around in circles in something called a thermal.......which is a rising column of hot air.

Anwway, here's the end of the pier show called a ferry service which is also relevant,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46799136
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