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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 5th Jan 2019, 08:43
  #2401 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The main change in immigration would appear to be a restriction on EU people and a relaxation on non EU. Almost every Leaver I know was largely motivated in their voting by dislike of the latter.bits not Polish plumbers they dislike but brown people with an unhealthy interest in big knives. I can tell you with some degree of certainty that, as soon as this information filters through whatever else occupies the cranial space of these erstwhile supporters of Brexit they are going to be somewhat dischuffed by this latest move to import more potential trouble, as they see it.
As usual the politicians are dancing round the handbags on this absolutely central issue, but it appears that future immigration policy will be based on the following core principles:
  1. An end to FMoP for EU nationals
  2. A move to a "skills based" immigration policy, that does not differentiate between EU and non-EU nationals. Precisely what this means in reality is not clear yet, but some form of minimum salary cap has been talked about
This is one of the few issues where there's likely to be a clear policy divide between the Tories and Labour at the next GE. As tescoapp explained so well a few posts ago, JC has very cleverly kept his powder dry on many issues where his more extreme views are likely to offend. I expect his personal views on immigration (it's a great thing, let them all in), once aired more widely, will be an open goal for the Tories and will help ensure he gets nowhere near Number 10.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 08:47
  #2402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VintageEngineer View Post
My biggest bugbear is that we haven't had any discussion on the issue that really matters, our dire financial position and how best to get out of it. Out in the Real World rather than the images spun by politicians grubbing for votes,our financial position has been going downhill for 25 years and we are currently spending some 3,000 per taxpayer more than we are earning, funded by selling off our companies, selling off our infrastructure and borrowing. That's all on top of the government's debts and liabilities where we are again living well beyond our means.

Against the implications of all of this,ferry services from Ramsgate are a pathetic distraction.

A pox on all politicians' houses.
This is a complex topic, for me at least, but i think you are driving at the crux of the current global capitalist model, which is simply that GDP growth is the be all and end all. How it's achieved, either sustainably or unsustainably as you highlight, is of much less importance.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 08:52
  #2403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Sorry, that nonsense may have worked with the hard of thinking, but it doesn't work here.

We have had far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside,
We've always had the power to reject the 'bad eggs' from outside the EU, and never managed to exercise it. There's no reason we will do any better with the EU bad eggs after Brexit. In fact there will now be a far bigger load on the immigration authorities, so even more are likely to get through.
Maybe the fact that a small number of bad eggs are wandering around the country stabbing people to death for no reason is reason enough to stop the madness?
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 08:56
  #2404 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Currently within the EU
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Do you understand the meaning of non sequitur ​​​​​​?
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:03
  #2405 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Redhill, Surrey, or another planet
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@andrewn It is a complex topic and IMO, like dieting, the workable answers can be summed up by 'consume less, exercise/work more'. Whether our best bet is to stay attached to the EU aiming to turn the tables on our EU27 competitors over time or to take the cold shower of Brexit won't be solved here, but it would be nice for our 'leaders' to address the issues and give us the chance to debate them.

Last edited by VintageEngineer; 5th Jan 2019 at 09:04. Reason: Added name
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:10
  #2406 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Do you understand the meaning of non sequitur ​​​​​​?
OK, to answer you directly, you are quite right...

The war criminal and serial liar Tony Blair was responsible for the open door immigration policy that has got us into the mess we are in now
Nobody who followed after him had the inclination to address this issue as the endless supply of cheap labour suited the GlobalCos quite nicely thank you, and the Exchequer turned a blind eye as anything that keeps big business happy is a good thing, right?
Fast forward a few years and the British people decide enough is enough and we vote to Leave the EU, with immigration being the number 1 topic by some margin
So the point is that, the imperative has now changed - it is no longer acceptable for the party in power to turn a blind eye to a fundamental issue that a large majority of the electorate believe has been out of control for years.

It's now really simple - we either have a set of policies that takes peoples legitimate concerns seriously and brings the immigration issue under control for good, or we end up with somebody like Trump in the not too distant future. You have a choice, so don't say you weren't warned!
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:11
  #2407 (permalink)  
 
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Question: Does a No Deal Brexit cause the UK to immediately stop all payments (39 billion has been bandied about) to the EU?
That's the crux as I see it - the EU want the UK to continue to pay this 39 billion or whatever regardless as to whether there is a "Deal" on the offered terms that Mrs May seems doomed to lose in the HoC n 10 days time.

If the UK is somehow obligated to make this 39 billion payment regardless as to whether there is a Deal or not, then surely the saner of the options is to rescind the Article 50 Withdrawal (the EU apparently say that can be done) and offer to stay within the EU PROVIDING the UK has the supreme power to ratify, amend or refuse to follow EU edicts; to have control of our borders by biometric scans, DNA, fingerprints, retinal scans etc so that we know what the purported identity of any person is. That will chase out those who don't want their identity rumbled and perhaps have an effect on crime in the UK.

The EU seem to be facing potential demands for Eire for compensation of many hundreds of millions of euros in the event of a No Deal Brexit, whereas we would have a war chest of 39 billion to defray some of the costs of a No Deal Brexit, perhaps able to offer a lower tax rate as an incentive to attract foreign investments and thus boost the UK economy.

The EU, faced with the black hole of 39 billion in their finances, plus Eire costs would have to raise income from the remaining EU membership, many of whom have a parlous financial state and are reliant on UK propping them up.

So, NO Deal - No Money as of 30 March 2019?
Otherwise why not stay in and b*gger them from inside - perhaps increasing what the UK get out of the EU by 39 billion or more.
We currently pay the EU about 8 billion a year more than we receive - so let's concentrate on getting that back for capital projects such as better motorways, airports, seaports and train services, as well as the NHS (still with biometric scanning to weed out any false claimants)
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:13
  #2408 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Maybe the fact that a small number of bad eggs are wandering around the country stabbing people to death for no reason is reason enough to stop the madness?
in truth, the Islamic attacks and bad eggs amongst immigrants are relatively unimportant. Our population grows by well over 1,000 a day, so, ignoring NI, we replaced all terrorist deaths of the last century in one day and victims are quickly forgotten by all but their friends and relatives.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:18
  #2409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icare9 View Post
Question: Does a No Deal Brexit cause the UK to immediately stop all payments (39 billion has been bandied about) to the EU?
That's the crux as I see it - the EU want the UK to continue to pay this 39 billion or whatever regardless as to whether there is a "Deal" on the offered terms that Mrs May seems doomed to lose in the HoC n 10 days time.

If the UK is somehow obligated to make this 39 billion payment regardless as to whether there is a Deal or not, then surely the saner of the options is to rescind the Article 50 Withdrawal (the EU apparently say that can be done) and offer to stay within the EU PROVIDING the UK has the supreme power to ratify, amend or refuse to follow EU edicts; to have control of our borders by biometric scans, DNA, fingerprints, retinal scans etc so that we know what the purported identity of any person is. That will chase out those who don't want their identity rumbled and perhaps have an effect on crime in the UK.

The EU seem to be facing potential demands for Eire for compensation of many hundreds of millions of euros in the event of a No Deal Brexit, whereas we would have a war chest of 39 billion to defray some of the costs of a No Deal Brexit, perhaps able to offer a lower tax rate as an incentive to attract foreign investments and thus boost the UK economy.

The EU, faced with the black hole of 39 billion in their finances, plus Eire costs would have to raise income from the remaining EU membership, many of whom have a parlous financial state and are reliant on UK propping them up.

So, NO Deal - No Money as of 30 March 2019?
Otherwise why not stay in and b*gger them from inside - perhaps increasing what the UK get out of the EU by 39 billion or more.
We currently pay the EU about 8 billion a year more than we receive - so let's concentrate on getting that back for capital projects such as better motorways, airports, seaports and train services, as well as the NHS (still with biometric scanning to weed out any false claimants)
Bob on my friend - it really is not the UK that has most to lose in the event of a no-deal
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:22
  #2410 (permalink)  
 
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Alas, the government can give the EU whatever it likes. After all, it's not their money, just a few numbers to throw on top of our debt pile (now over 60,000 per taxpayer in headline debt and nearly 200,000 when unfunded liabilities such as government (eg NHS, Armed Forces) pensions are included).
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:23
  #2411 (permalink)  
 
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Well we are pretty much certain to end up with someone like Trump in as much as it's likely that they will be detached from reality. Whether that person leads The Left or The Right is the only likely issue at stake. Either way they will be a swivel eyed loon because that's all that is on offer. I have voted for both main parties ( The Tory only for the candidate because he was a good 'ol boy)

From my POV I am pretty much disenfranchised now. A choice between wasting my vote and not casting it at all.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:29
  #2412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VintageEngineer View Post
in truth, the Islamic attacks and bad eggs amongst immigrants are relatively unimportant. Our population grows by well over 1,000 a day, so, ignoring NI, we replaced all terrorist deaths of the last century in one day and victims are quickly forgotten by all but their friends and relatives.
I'm actually not convinced by that argument, and I think it underplays the intellect that a majority of Brits can bring to bear when challenged on a complex issue. People do hear the drip, drip bad news feed of religously inspired terror attacks, knife crime, child grooming, forced marriages, etc. Eventually they put two and two together and realise that all isn't rosy in the garden after all.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:38
  #2413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Bob on my friend - it really is not the UK that has most to lose in the event of a no-deal
So we have been told for the past two years. The EU would have to give way at the last minute and give us a nice sweet deal.
How is that going now?
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 10:12
  #2414 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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The Brexiters keep spouting this rubbish - it's a characteristic of people who haven't a clue what they are talking about, sadly.

PDR
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 10:52
  #2415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Bob on my friend - it really is not the UK that has most to lose in the event of a no-deal
Bob on if you live in a fantasy world. You mentioned a lack of humour amongst remainers, but this unicorn strewn wish list is hilarious.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 11:16
  #2416 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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He isn't incorrect

Don't get me wrong there will be negative effects in UK.

But some countries are not as well placed for either the market change or the pound going so low.

To be honest 40 billion is nowhere near enough to cover the bad debt which will result in substantially lower UK tourists and spending in the med countries. Which I suspect will kick in even with a deal.

You would br mad to pay upfront for a holiday in the euro zone next summer. As a Brit I won't be going near the med as I expect the locals will be decidedly cool to us at best.

The EU knows fine that and so does the UK. Who is going to flinch first?

Neither Corybn is going to play a joker

Last edited by tescoapp; 5th Jan 2019 at 11:26.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 11:27
  #2417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
But, at the risk of sounding like a why-why-why toddler, why did we do that?

(Don't mind me, I've just been reading some (not very interesting) stuff on root cause analysis.)
It is not difficult to work out. The majority of the voting population wanted to leave. Politicians have a duty to listen to their voters, even if they don't agree. Failure to do so could see them losing their seats. Or as a (ex) counsellor do you think that the UK population shouldn't be listened to? You might also feel that actually the Polictians should not bother to listen to anyone outside London and just do as they want. The majority of the voting population was given a say as to how they saw their future with the EU. It would appear, in some of those who post on here, that certain parts of the UK should just keep quiet and put up with what is happening in their communities.
Not once have I heard from those who voted remain how to address the concerns of leavers. Most of comments seem to be just to ignore them and the problem will disappear. If the MPs etc over the past 20 years had bothered to listen to their concerns, then there might have been a reson to vote leave.

The Lab MP Onasanya is what happens when the Polictical elite seem to think they are above everyone else.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 11:29
  #2418 (permalink)  
 
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tescoapp, why would the locals in the Med be cool to tourists from the UK???? As far as I can see (and I travel to various parts of Europe a lot), nobody seems to care about Brexit nearly as much as the Brits (unsurprisingly), and I have yet to meet anybody who resents the UK for voting to leave... Do most people think it's the wrong decision? Yes. Is pretty much everybody amused at how much self-loathing the process is generating in GB? Again, Yes... But as far as I can see your GBP will still be welcome everywhere, and by the way I have yet to hear a convincing argument why the Pound MUST devalue after a Brexit: don't forget that Europe and other countries have national banks too, and they together (and sometimes even separately) have much more leverage when it comes to buying or selling large amounts of currency to influence the exchange rate than yours.... A radically lowered GBP is just wishful thinking from UK producers who rely on exports, and whose job will be made more complicated by being outside the common EU market...
A global downturn of the world economy is coming in 2019, Brexit or no Brexit: the trade and border woes between the UK and the EU will be just one little factor in the whole mess, I predict.
Finally, it's not very expensive to purchase some currency to mitigate the risk of coming fluctuations: I have a small holiday house in France, and I purchase of lot of supplies in the US. Accordingly, I have both an EUR and USD account with my bank, with a few month's worth of salary on them, so in the short term currency fluctuations don't even affect me.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 11:47
  #2419 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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TBH, I've avoided the Canaries and the Baleares in the last few years because of over-crowding on some islands, and vastly inflated prices on others....

No offense, but a desertion of Tenerife by UK tourists, for example, would rather be an incentive for me to go spend some money there...
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 11:49
  #2420 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Because the fallout of the UK has been rather effectively not been told to most of them.

The pound being low will mean those that do turn up will spend less.

Quite a few won't go on holiday anyway.

It's going to be a huge surprise of hugely reduced income which rather large amounts of debt was taken in the expectation of receiving.

I agree there will be a down turn anyway but it will just alter the scale of it for certain countries.

Empty bars and hotels will worry people and cause coolness in some. Especially as unemployment rates are already double figures and the summer season keeps more than a few families feed over winter.
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