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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 1st Jan 2019, 04:18
  #2201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cpt_Pugwash View Post
Oh, the irony.
" In accordance with the Referendum Act 1975, the European Communities membership referendum took place on Thursday 5 June 1975, and voters approved continued EC/EEC membership by 67% to 33% on a national turnout of 64%. "
The EC/EEC was a very different animal back in 1975 when compared to the EU of today. It was more trade focussed between a limited nimber of nations rather than becoming a political entity with the end goal of a united states of europe.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 05:37
  #2202 (permalink)  
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https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sroads-cartoon
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 07:43
  #2203 (permalink)  
 
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Having another ref is not a certainty of the result changing.

The definition of the question in some ways is even more problematic than getting an exit deal with the EU. We can see the issues with the last one.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

With the options

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

Which is as basic as you can get but still people are calling foul.

And even if there was a second referendum its still not finished with. Which ever way it goes there will be calls that there should be another one. And its sets a precedent for any future ref's.

It doesn't matter which way it goes the EU has to move forward and change things, the EU army will raise its head and there are several other topics which they need to deal with pretty quickly. One of them is changing ART 50 so countries can't leave and just walk away as the UK has the possibility of doing now.

Another ref is your just looking at another 10 years of pain and arguing. By which point the vast majority of a default exit would have been worked through and both sides will have been able to move forward. Yes there will be still be some bitching but it will be a small minority holding deep hurt in there hearts over perceived unfairness of what happened and it not going the way they wanted.

The changes that will need to occur relatively quickly in the EU will basically preclude the UK re-joining anyway never mind the fact that the EU won't let it back in anyway. Even having the UK involved, with its veto's, for another two years will do some quiet serious damage to the EU.

Brexit damage has already started and will have knock on effects this summer in several countries. I also have a sneaky feeling that this Japan trade deal that one group waves in the air will fail to go through if the UK does come out on the 29th. And there will be several other deals come up for review due to a change in the Market balance. End of Feb will see things extremely volatile. Extension will just continue the pain.

Its a huge catch 22 situation, now there is no way out. Personally I think its better to get it over and done with. Until the faces change on both sides its just a critical mass. I am actually quiet surprised none of the main players haven't dropped dead due stress related issues.

Last edited by tescoapp; 1st Jan 2019 at 09:19.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 11:11
  #2204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Having another ref is not a certainty of the result changing.

The definition of the question in some ways is even more problematic than getting an exit deal with the EU. We can see the issues with the last one.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

With the options

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

Which is as basic as you can get but still people are calling foul.

.....And even if there was a second referendum its still not finished with. Which ever way it goes there will be calls that there should be another one. And its sets a precedent for any future ref's. ....

It doesn't matter which way it goes the EU has to move forward and change things, the EU army will raise its head and there are several other topics which they need to deal with pretty quickly. One of them is changing ART 50 so countries can't leave and just walk away as the UK has the possibility of doing now.

Another ref is your just looking at another 10 years of pain and arguing. By which point the vast majority of a default exit would have been worked through and both sides will have been able to move forward. Yes there will be still be some bitching but it will be a small minority holding deep hurt in there hearts over perceived unfairness of what happened and it not going the way they wanted.

The changes that will need to occur relatively quickly in the EU will basically preclude the UK re-joining anyway never mind the fact that the EU won't let it back in anyway. Even having the UK involved, with its veto's, for another two years will do some quiet serious damage to the EU.

Brexit damage has already started and will have knock on effects this summer in several countries. I also have a sneaky feeling that this Japan trade deal that one group waves in the air will fail to go through if the UK does come out on the 29th. And there will be several other deals come up for review due to a change in the Market balance. End of Feb will see things extremely volatile. Extension will just continue the pain.

Its a huge catch 22 situation, now there is no way out. Personally I think its better to get it over and done with. Until the faces change on both sides its just a critical mass. I am actually quiet surprised none of the main players haven't dropped dead due stress related issues.
Which is why I suggested the result of another referendum would need to be to a much higher level than 50%+1 in order to overturn the result of the first EU membership referendum, my suggestion was 60% in order to make it a very positive message one way or the other. Those that want no deal Brexit simply stay at home, those that want remain or the ‘May’ deal need to turn out.

There are many that say hordes and hordes of people have changed their mind over Brexit, including some on this forum. If it is true, and I accept it may be, then 60%+1 would put the matter beyond any reasonable surely?
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 11:23
  #2205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Which is why I suggested the result of another referendum would need to be to a much higher level than 50%+1 in order to overturn the result of the first EU membership referendum, my suggestion was 60% in order to make it a very positive message one way or the other.
A point that was made by many both in the U.K. and elsewhere in the run up to the second referendum and is one several reasons why many are of the option that DC was a complete and utter ***wit.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 11:27
  #2206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Those that want no deal Brexit simply stay at home
Student politics. Bunch of people who know they're in the minority view hanging around outside the room, peering through the door, counting. Whilst there isn't a quorum, stay outside, vote taken, they win, despite being in a minority. If enough people turn up to the meeting to make a quorum, go in and vote, despite expecting to lose.

If we played those games in real elections we'd have to ban reporting of turnout figures during the day, as we currently ban reporting of exit polls. And that would be impossible to enforce, because so many people are tracking the turnout hour by hour.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 11:28
  #2207 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Not quite difficult enough, yet, sadly. Mostly because, against the clear will of the people.
Gertie, Gertie, how can you spout such rubbish?

The only clear will of the people was to leave.

What is true is that the ardent remainers, but by no means all remainers, think it is against the clear will of the people. It isn't and cannot be stated to be true until we have a national vote.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 12:13
  #2208 (permalink)  
 
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I can't believe that at this stage people are still arguing about the ppossibility of another referendum.

Would it be reasonable to let the electorate decide on the negotiated exit agreement? Yes of course. They all know now that the wonderful deal promised by Boris & Co. was a fantasy, and many minds could change.

Is it going to happen? No. It's far too late. We passed Vr long ago and there's a very bumpy flight ahead. Seat belts remain fastened.
​​​
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 12:33
  #2209 (permalink)  
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Peter Schrank's cartoon expresses what must be his idea of European salvation for Britain. It's not an unbiased political comment cartoon. He portrays a no deal as the worst option and a referendum as the best. That is presumably his personal opinion. He is Swiss of course so, in terms of referendums, he might tend to some degree of bias.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 14:36
  #2210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


Which is why I suggested the result of another referendum would need to be to a much higher level than 50%+1 in order to overturn the result of the first EU membership referendum, my suggestion was 60% in order to make it a very positive message one way or the other. Those that want no deal Brexit simply stay at home, those that want remain or the ‘May’ deal need to turn out.

There are many that say hordes and hordes of people have changed their mind over Brexit, including some on this forum. If it is true, and I accept it may be, then 60%+1 would put the matter beyond any reasonable surely?
And therefore 60% for a general election?
You cannot have it both ways.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 14:58
  #2211 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
And therefore 60% for a general election?
You cannot have it both ways.
Fallacy.

How could a 60% figure work? Keep having an election until the electorate give up we get 60% by default? A 60% or other marginal system only works on a change/no change vote.

Having been a poll clerk when we had 2 or 3 elections in a few weeks the voters showed their dislike voting - once yes but no more.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 15:32
  #2212 (permalink)  
 
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I see the BBC is stirring it up again with an article on now Brexit will affect holidays in Europe.

If there's no deal, your licence might not be valid by itself when driving in the EU. It means you might need to get hold of an International Driving Permit (IDP) as well, which costs £5.50. You might also need one of those to hire a vehicle.
What a load of rubbish!. I have rented cars in most of the World's continents and nobody has asked me for an international licence. The only time I needed one was when I was driving Chinese registered cars in China but that's gone out of the window now, you need a Chinese licence.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 16:37
  #2213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Thanet council are reporting having said their proposed capacity is a maximum of 3,360 trucks a day with 24 sailings. Which would seem to indicate up to 140 trucks per trip.
Given a 3.5 hour crossing, and assuming 1 hour turn round at each end I reckon they'll need between 5 and 6 ships, and the staff that go with that size operation. I hope they intend paying more than £30k because they won't find all the people they need from the UK pool of job hunters!

Perhaps my maths are wrong.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 17:00
  #2214 (permalink)  
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Hourly departure with with an 9 hour cycle time ((3.5 + 1 + 3.5 + 1) takes 8 ships. But I presume Thanet means port capacity, not that Seaborne intend to offer that number of movements.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 18:03
  #2215 (permalink)  
 
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It won't be Brits crewing it, bet you will get a good curry in the feeder though.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 19:16
  #2216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
I see the BBC is stirring it up again with an article on now Brexit will affect holidays in Europe.



What a load of rubbish!.
Given the BBC seem to be the goverment’s mouthpiece when it comes to things Brexit is it possible the source is HMG itself and advice such as this here:

https://www.gov.uk/driving-abroad

FWIW the advice being given by other source to U.K. expats living in the EU 27 who until now have hung onto the EU/U.K. issued licences is to either exchange to a local licence or get an International permit before Brexit if it looks like being a hard one..

Of course if folks want to “wing it” so be it, but certainly our local police do frequently pull drivers over and check all documents.




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Old 1st Jan 2019, 22:04
  #2217 (permalink)  
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Now this would be fun to watch were it to unfold.
I should think it would give Jeremy a clear run, in spite of the youthful useful idiots.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...o-deal-brexit/
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 22:13
  #2218 (permalink)  
 
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If your registered as a resident in a Eu country then an international driving permit will not be acceptable post exit, you will have to transfer before the 29th. If you don't then you have to complete the driving test, theory and any other bollocks they want you to do in what ever lingo they want you to. This includes mandatory instruction and experience be it at night, rain ,snow what ever the local requirements are.

If you don't by the 29th you won't be able to drive in the country of residence but you will get away with it in the other members states with a permit.

This is the current situation it may change though as its lumped in with a load of other things which are likely to be if the Uk allows the same then we will allow the same in return. BUt as the Uk has always forced people to exchange there licenses after a period in country it will be the same as the UK regulations I suspect.

Considering the piss taking I have seen by resident none locals with fines and taking the complete and utter piss because they know apart from a DUI they will pay the fine and carry on driving its not such a bad thing.

If your resident a international permit will not cut it.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 23:15
  #2219 (permalink)  
 
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BTW I swapped my ticket 6 months ago and it cost less than renewing the wanky photo card for the UK.

The bloke that did the driving test couldn't speak English, I had a trailer on the back which I later learned he wanted me to take off. We did the test with finger pointing and grunting. Personally I think the reverse round the corner with a trailer in one go nailed it

What I really don't understand though is why the DVLA sent me a brand new 10 year photo card with my new passport photo after I handed in my UK license when I transferred with no payment made and no request for a new license.

So now I have 5 driving licenses of various flavours. two of which are EU, a few weeks though and only 1 will be the other 3 none EU are all valid without a international drivers permit.

I also have 4 ICAO ATPL's as well... but that's another issue.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 23:25
  #2220 (permalink)  

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
With the options:
Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union


I actually don't think that that qualifies as a valid referendum. It's a bit like dispensing with a trial and just asking the jury to raise their hands if they think the accused should be hung. Even a mediocre Barrister could make mincemeat out of it, and a good one a purée.

Mac
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