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Jamal Khashoggi....so what happened then??

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Jamal Khashoggi....so what happened then??

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Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:38
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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I can pretty much gar-on-tee Trump is not going to interfere in internal family of Saud govt squabbles. That's a no win move on all fronts. Going to be a real mess to sort out.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:40
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles?
It can so easily happen.

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Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:40
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I don't believe that Mr Kashoggi is a US citizen, as I understand it from what's been reported, he just works for a US company, but remains a Saudi citizen. As such, I'd guess that the Saudis may view this action as no different to beheading someone within their own country, as what they did happened on their sovereign territory, in effect. We may well think that they've behaved like animals, but then the same could be said about their frequent and many human rights abuses in their own country, about which we do nothing.
You are correct, my apology for the error. I thought he had become a US citizen, but that is not accurate. And, your analysis is also correct, that we might condemn it, the family of Saud might simply see it as correcting an internal national fault.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 19:39
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
The Libyans did it in London, in full view of dozens of witnesses, and got away with it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murd...vonne_Fletcher
Yes, not forgetting Lockerbie and also what happened to Gadaffi and Libya since. That is despite their oil and what good has all their oil done for them and their dust bowl.
The civilised people of this world need to stand united against such acts, no matter what economic consequences there may ensue. Tyranny is the by product of loss of freedoms. History has proven it time and time again. The US has stood as the principal nation intolerant of it, ever ready, equipped to fight and wipe it out wherever it exists. Let`s see how Trump goes with this one. I wonder will he stick to his banner of for Americans and for no one else. Just as he did in getting his pastor out of the Turkish jail. Or will he decide it is nothing to do with us, say innocent until proven guilty, and a few tut tuts for good measure in expressing disapproval of the whole messy business of saws, poisons and butchery and a team of fifteen to take out a little bloke who would have difficulty in holding down a chiwawa. Not exactly cricket I`d say.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 19:55
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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This is interesting as it is always a fine line between having someone disappeared and having the punishment visible enough to send a message. Not quite sure where this falls other than a message has indeed been sent.

Lonewolf brings up a good point about the ups and downs that not only the U.S. but the entire West has had over the years with the House of Saud. Tough situation. My personal preference however, would be for Trump and Pompeo to drop the unctous servility. Irrespective of how past presidents or other western leaders have played the lackey in front of the Saudis, a little spine would be reassuring--even if they are unable to influence the situation that much..

I am surprised at the volume of the voices in Congress however. They are chirping loudly but I imagine those protests will be quited should there be any financial loss to the district.

Last edited by Uncle Fred; 17th Oct 2018 at 21:46.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 21:23
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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I am surprised at the volume of the voices in Congress however.
Likely the daggers have been out for some time with regards to KSA and MBS, this was the kind of opportunity many were waiting/hoping for.

For the liberal media this story has multiple advantages, whipping the KSA (quite rightly so) and engineering a significant (and potentially unrecoverable in this instance) blow to Trumps credibility, I think he fails to understand what this could do to his presidency, grinning pompeo looked like an utter fool.

The KSA keep on digging a ditch... this time it may well be a game changer as the evidence if verified as credible seems extremely damaging at the very least.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 21:39
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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A question for those of you who cannot seem to discuss this matter without turning it around to Trump (Chux, Turb, etc):

What do you think the US position should be vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, and precisely what specific steps should the US take in the very near future to accomplish your position?

No waffling or word-salading allowed.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 22:05
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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OB, while I would not pretend to say exactly what the U.S. should do I think reevaluating its view toward Iran would be helpful. With the U.S. now a net energy exporter, it is no longer so sewn to the teat of the Saudis. Yet they are locked in an embrace with KSA over Iran.

The Kingdom of course wishes the U.S. to be its hired hand and despatch those oh so naughty Iranians for them. Why not? If the Saudis play it right the U.S. will want to do this as it intersects its view that subduing Iran will be good for themselves and its allies in the Middle East. Thus forms the virtuous circle.

Except that there are cracks in this model--some quite deep as you probably know. Yes the Iranians stir up trouble but choosing sides in a sectarian strife is fraught with more danger than I would wish on the plate.

There are no clear answers and so asking for concrete suggestions is a nudge off the mark. One is better to speak of least worst arrangements. Again, past craveness aside, having Jared and MbS in a lip-lock does not seem to be along that path. Whether the conversation rounds to Trump is almost unavoidable as he is the President. I am not saying that Iran does not need minding, but it seems that the U.S. is so fixated on it that it not only keeps them from more important tasks, but that it locks them into a ME strategy that could lead to further instability and even widened armed conflict.

Last edited by Uncle Fred; 18th Oct 2018 at 02:11.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 22:47
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?
Who's going to make him go?
His father - I don't think so.
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 23:01
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?
"Should", not "will".
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 23:09
  #111 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?
Maybe in the same manner as Khashoggi departed?

Seems only fair - an eye for an eye and all that . . .
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 23:50
  #112 (permalink)  

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"What do you think the US position should be vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, and precisely what specific steps should the US take in the very near future to accomplish your position?"

Difficult. Kashoggi is no Perdicaris (whose claim to American citizenship turned out to be dubious in the end). Kashoggi is/was a Saudi Arabian journalist resident in the USA - no idea what his visa status was. He was effectively a Saudi dissident but not a refugee.

Legally I doubt whether the USA has/had any responsibility for him - probably not. His murder in Istanbul, took place on diplomatic Saudi territory (the Embassy).

Nasty, sure. But Trump has made it clear that the USA is no longer prepared to act as a global policeman or ethics enforcer.

Practically, I don't think that the USA is obliged to do anything (retaliation, cancellation of military hardware orders) at all.

Mac
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 00:38
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Someone in Turkey will have some explaining as to how they came into possession of video and audio recordings of the inside of a Consulate .
There are lots of ex-soldier types who will be getting a bonus just in time for the holidays .
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 01:31
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
Nasty, sure. But Trump has made it clear that the USA is no longer prepared to act as a global policeman or ethics enforcer.

Practically, I don't think that the USA is obliged to do anything (retaliation, cancellation of military hardware orders) at all.

Mac
The first is quite true. However, the world still looks and listens to the US just the same as before.

While the US may not have an obligation, it makes for really bad optics. Our situation with Iran, who is a known exporter of terror, and internal civil rights mistakes will and should be expected to treat like failures the same. Why does the Saud family get a pass on state sponsored murder(as they are not admitting yet to a justified reason to kill him for cause) while Iran is ostracized and the US works to keep others from trading with them?
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 01:47
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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I am not wishing to excuse anyone, but people often say that Iran is a "known exporter of terror". Is it really?

Surely any terror exported is Shia-based, usually against Sunni Arab governments in the ME, in order to foment revolution within the Sunni-Shia power structure. And usually anti-IS to boot. Against allies of those governments such as Israel too.

Certainly it is not Sunni terror against the West of the type that has become all too common recently.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 18th Oct 2018 at 09:56.
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 01:53
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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In semi response to an above question - What exactly was the real US position on KSA two weeks ago, and in the hallowed halls, What is the real current position on KSA?
All this pandering goes beyond oil, bullet sales and military ally(? cough....cough...cough.....).

"Dispatch" Iran? What does that mean? Can that ever happen? Does dispatching mean turning them into a cowering poodle puppy of a country? What will there be if they are dispatched? Another re-energizing of the ME fill the vacuum machine? Not going to happen unless Iran goes Nuclear Insane.
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 03:35
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Well lookie here...we can have an honest discussion about a difficult problem. Good!

There is no easy answer. The US has been in cahoots with KSA since oil was discovered there. I don’t see the benefit of throwing that away just because they act like the medieval thugs we always knew they were. Likewise, I’m not sure switching despots will accomplish much or contribute to peace.

We go through these cycles all the time. We have to deal with some dirtballs in order to get things done. Periodically we get all righteous, and decide to only deal with upstanding freedom lovers. That approach usually comes back to bite us. Clinton tried that with the CIA, and emasculated the place.

We don’t have to love the Saudis, but it is still in our interests to deal with them.
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 03:45
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Not surprised that the Saudi Embassy is wired with all sorts of mics/bugs.
Am a little surprised that Fort Meade (and therefore POTUS) doesn't already have a copy of the audio in question - because I'm darned sure they would monitor Genelkurmay Elektronik Sistemler - the Turkish SIGINT spooks... unless of course they're not saying....
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 06:37
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Dead Chicken Tied Around Neck

That's what farmers do with dogs that kill a chicken.

MbS just did that to himself.

Pompeo and Trump are eagerly following suit
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 06:50
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The difference? We call it "freedom."

When a wedding feast gets blown sky-high, or someone just going about his lawful business, not bothering anyone, gets turned into red mist, isn't that some sort of terrorism, some sort of infliction of sudden and extreme violence? Well, our last President, recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, did more of that sort of thing than his immediate predecessor, plus he seemed to get along just fine with the Saudis.

Years ago (in a bar, of course) an Arab friend told me that he really saw little difference between dropping a bomb from an aircraft, and putting one in the back of a truck as an alternate way to deliver one. (In fact the pilot of the bomber is merely a participant, but the suicide truck bomber ... he is dedicated.) He seemed to have got that one right, actually.

I think that we Americans do have some very powerful tools we can use against tyrants and for basic freedoms, tools that do not involve violence but just words, words often put out by journalists such as the late (presumably) Mr. Khashoggi.

Trump is too dishonest to find the publication of truth to be anything but a threat. He's deeply involved in scraping a living by selling his big pink arse to anyone with lots of money, so do not expect him to suddenly wake up to how we can still weaponize truth as we have done in the past. To expose the rulers of Saudi Arabia would mean exposing Donald Trump and his gimcrack Trump Organization too.

In this one Trump has put us on the wrong side, so far. He's parroting the Saudi line(s) because of this somewhat made-up pile of 110 billion dollars in weapons sales. Too, of course, Trump still stands by his ranting against our free press, even calling it "an enemy of the people." (No Donald, it is an enemy of you, because you are a crook and a lowlife.) Do you really expect Trump to do one of his famous 180s now, to speak up for the sort of work that seems to have cost Khashoggi his life? (Bear in mind that Khashoggi was writing for the Washington Post, one of Trump's prime targets for defamation.) The poor bastard, not even a US citizen, seems to have died for embodying a basic US value, when our sitting President is stomping all over our right to freedom of speech, our right to speak truth to power. Now, there is irony!

We armed and trained the Saudis and then turned them loose to do what they wanted to. (Well, sort of the same as we have done with the Israelis, and not so long ago did with the Iranians.) Expect a bit of a fuss over this very, very awkward move, Trump's Saudi friends murdering one of their own on Turkish soil in a very clumsy and brutal way, and being caught at that. On the other hand, do not expect us, led by Trump, to really change the way we behave towards Saudi Arabia.

By the way: An embassy or consulate is not sovereign territory of some foreign power. That Saudi consulate is on Turkish soil. Turkey extends certain diplomatic protections to it, behaving as if it's sovereign Saudi territory, but it is still on Turkish soil. In legal terms there's no difference between killing someone in Istanbul in the Saudi consul's office, or else doing that right in front of Hagia Sophia before hundreds of onlookers; both places are Turkish soil. In practical terms, sure, you can slaughter some guy like a sheep when nobody is looking, but that has nothing to do with legality.
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