UK Rail Fare increase

[TLDNMCL]

Originally Posted by Kiltrash

Firstly I have never cummuted by train however given that those that do. Say Northampton to London ' complain' about a 3% rise they have a choice....live closer to London, higher house price , etc or cheaper house price but increased commute costs ...

also given that most that do commute they work in offices so all they need is a telephone and or computer

So why do they not be allowed to work from home?


trust by the employer?

my last company HO in Central London before retirement has 2 large call centres 1 in East Kilbride and one in Newry NI

my son Works in a large lawyer office at Liverpool street and house bought in Walthamstow with the help of bank of dad but earns a 6 fig salary and cycles to work

As a side comment amazing the large full all day car parks at the train stations .. more costs car not needed and car park charges

Sorry no sympathy for train commuters!

Not everybody sits on their @rse behind a keyboard for a living; ever tried wiring a building or repairing a generator with your laptop at home? Nor does everyone get propped up by The Bank of Dad (despite a six-figure salary)!
I am a keen cyclist, but 43 miles each way every working day is neither practical nor desirable, and driving can take three hours or more in the evening. I'll take a 25 minute train journey every time thanks; by the way, I don't moan about the price either, it's my choice.

[Bee Rexit]

And someone has to pay the wages. Recently saw a job advert for Crossrail, Trainee drivers wage £29,500 rising to £59,500 when qualified.

[Tankertrashnav]

I knew a chap at Lands End who had packed in being a London tube driver to fly for Westward Airways on Islanders. He loved the new job but was struggling with the big cut in wages he had taken, never mind the fortune his CPL had cost him. Learn to fly and pay out of your own pocket - learn to drive a train and get paid £30k p.a while doing it!

[WilliumMate]

Originally Posted by Bee Rexit

And someone has to pay the wages. Recently saw a job advert for Crossrail, Trainee drivers wage £29,500 rising to £59,500 when qualified.

I can give you a bit of history regarding the level of train drivers salaries. Back in the early 80s the railway was struggling to recruit staff. Low wages, poor conditions and industrial unrest led to young lads being placed on the railway on YOP/YTS (remember them?) schemes to help with the shortage of staff. Many were employed as traction trainees and these are now the senior drivers. When BR was taken outside and shot and franchises were awarded, a drivers pay rate was a low basic and a myriad of allowances, payments, overtime enhancements and other bits and pieces which made up the total earnings. Payslips were often the size of A4 flyers. New companies restructured this into a consolidated salary which in 1997 was around £25k. Allowing for inflation, today it would be worth about £45K. Contrary to common belief the unions had little to do with the overall increase in drivers salaries to today's level. This was initiated by the companies themselves when they realised the cost of training new drivers. Rather than bite the bullet and train their own drivers they resorted to hiking salaries to attract qualified drivers. Another unintended effect of privatisation was that some qualified drivers naturally wanted to progress from intensive commuter work to companies on the inter-city routes. This saw the companies losing drivers further increase salaries which other companies had to match to retain staff. There has been no downward pressure on salaries as the demand for drivers has risen with increased service levels.

It costs a lot to train a driver. Fifteen years ago I helped train an intake of 17 ab-initio drivers and it took 15 months and a total spend of about £1.5M. Not cheap.

Tankertrashnav alluded to the difference between industries with would be pilots having to pay for their training and train drivers being paid to do so. We all know that the railway has it right. The company is in complete control of the trainee from initial contact through selection, testing and training until they get their 'key' and are let loose on their own. I have no doubt that the beancounters would love prospective drivers to self fund but this is where the advantage of having strong trade unions comes into play. Some private training organisations will allow wannabes to take the psychometric tests (national standard) for a hefty fee but people who have done this have no advantage when applying for a trainees position and if their application is progressed will have to do them again (or company specific testing) as part of the process. I have known two footplatemen who decided to fly commercially and made sacrifices to do so. Both are now LHS and doing well. One thing to remember is that the newly qualified FO will see his salary progress throughout his career whereas the day one qualified train driver will be on the same rate of pay as the chap a day away from retirement in the same company.

Not meant as a defence of the salaries paid, just a bit of background.

[Blues&twos]

I'm with TLDNMCL on this. Did quite a lot of commuting by train when I had an eye injury - also not able to 'work from home' installing and repairing industrial control systems.
For those who are unable to drive (in my case temporary vision issues, but there are many who have permanent issues of various types) using public transport is not exactly a lifestyle choice.

[eal401]

Originally Posted by Prophead

The amount spent on fares into London, which is many thousands per year per passenger should be more than adequate to pay for the infrastructure. The likes of Crossrail and Crossrail 2 will ensure that this is the case. Relying on ancient railways designed to move a fraction of the actual number can never be economical.

HS1 and very soon crossrail have transformed many peoples journey and then HS2, HS3 Crossrail 2 HS4 etc. will do the same.

My understanding is (and it's a few years out of date, so am prepared to be corrected) that at least one of the main commuter lines into London (The South Western Mainline) did under South West Trains pay a healthy amount back into the Department of Transport - so those travellers are in fact subsidising other areas, e.g. Northern Rail etc. Not sure if that will still be the case with South Western Railway. In fact, one report recently on the fare rises had a disgruntled Manchester commuter bemoaning his £1,000 a year season ticket going up by 3.5% - i.e. £35! The only thought across my mind was "£1,000 a year? Lucky beggar!!" (I don't recall the exact journey - but it was around the same as Basingstoke to Southampton which costs three times as much. I don't believe salaries in Hampshire are three times those in Manchester!)

[Carry0nLuggage]

When season ticket renewal time comes around I do a quick comparison of £p per mile for both the train and the car. Lo and behold they are pretty much evens and have been for years, almost as if the rail company factors this into the price.
Frankly after a few decades of commuting by car in various parts of the country I'm more than happy to let someone else do the work.

[flash8]

It costs a lot to train a driver. Fifteen years ago I helped train an intake of 17 ab-initio drivers and it took 15 months and a total spend of about £1.5M. Not cheap.

Damned responsible job being responsible for hundreds of passengers (along with the Guards... that are essential in my opinion) at high speed on congested networks... they deserve every penny. However that certainly is an eye-opener... not cheap... roughly the same time and cost as a CPL/IR.

[treadigraph]

Friend of mine gets a yearly season ticket into London - his employers are encouraging staff to work at home 2-3 days a week in a new flexible working arrangement; I wonder if you get any form of credit on your ticket for that? Ie if the year is up but you've only used say 70% of the journeys eligible, do you get an extension of a couple of months... ? Must be to the rail companies' benefit if flexi working reduces the awful overcrowding...

[Prophead]

Friend of mine gets a yearly season ticket into London - his employers are encouraging staff to work at home 2-3 days a week in a new flexible working arrangement; I wonder if you get any form of credit on your ticket for that?

Probably not, my ticket is £175 per week. If I paid daily it would be £75 a day. That means if there is any chance I will be more than 2 days in London it's cheaper to buy a weekly ticket.

[treadigraph]

I'm seeing him in the pub later, I know he's just renewed his ticket; if I remember, I'll ask him...

[Captivep]

There are two immovable staples of morning news programmes in this country. In August, it's pretty blonde girls from the home counties opening their A level results and in January, it's voxpopping commuters to see if they are happy about the annual price rise. So far, man has never bitten dog on the first Monday morning of January...

[Ancient Observer]

One of the problems with "commuting" by train is that so many Senior Civil Servants who are advising the Govt just do not have to commute by train.
They drive in, get more or less free parking, and drive home again. So they do not give a monkeys for trains.

[racedo]

Originally Posted by Ancient Observer

One of the problems with "commuting" by train is that so many Senior Civil Servants who are advising the Govt just do not have to commute by train.
They drive in, get more or less free parking, and drive home again. So they do not give a monkeys for trains.

Not sure where you get that info from but friends were Senior Civil Servants and at a level where they negotiated on behalf of HMG with EU and other states.
They lived in London and commuted in by train, moving away from London they still commuted in by train.
They knew few if any who did the car bit because of the hassle even with free parking.

[flash8]

How many youngsters can afford the train today?

Back in the late 80's with a "Network South East" Railcard I was getting 50% off off-peak fares that themselves were not unreasonable, the trains were generally reliable, and never packed off-peak, comfortably empty. Although many criticise the old BR days they were the only time I genuinely found the trains affordable.

And none of this "customer" pseudo-bullshit that is meaningless today, in those days you got a genuine smile or frown, staff helped or didn't, but on the whole service was far, far better than in later years.

[KelvinD]

It is interesting to note that, during the 80s, British Rail was the most efficient rail service in Europe. Sadly, they had become so successful that it led to the sell off in the 90s. And it has been downhill ever since!

[VP959]

Originally Posted by racedo

Not sure where you get that info from but friends were Senior Civil Servants and at a level where they negotiated on behalf of HMG with EU and other states.
They lived in London and commuted in by train, moving away from London they still commuted in by train.
They knew few if any who did the car bit because of the hassle even with free parking.

This particular Civil Servant had to commute by train to Main Building for a fair time. An hour and a half each way from Grately to Waterloo and back, plus the parking cost at Grately. Driving all the way into town wasn't a viable option, as there was virtually no staff parking space at all. May have been different in some other ministries, but I doubt it. What little parking space that was available was often filled with pool cars.

[Tankertrashnav]

It is interesting to note that, during the 80s, British Rail was the most efficient rail service in Europe. Sadly, they had become so successful that it led to the sell off in the 90s. And it has been downhill ever since!

Depends what you mean by downhill. Since 1997 the annual number of passenger journeys has doubled from around 800m to 1.65bn on what is essentially the same system, give or take a few short routes which have re-opened in that time. This of course has led to overcrowding as the system approaches saturation. In addition journey times have been reduced considerably on both the West and East Coast Main Lines, although I am prepared to admit that down here in the South West, journey times to the capital have improved little since the 80s.

The 1880s!

[racedo]

Originally Posted by VP959

This particular Civil Servant had to commute by train to Main Building for a fair time. An hour and a half each way from Grately to Waterloo and back, plus the parking cost at Grately. Driving all the way into town wasn't a viable option, as there was virtually no staff parking space at all. May have been different in some other ministries, but I doubt it. What little parking space that was available was often filled with pool cars.

You make a good point re parking as perhaps they should introduce higher rates for short term parking at train stations
1-8 hours £15
9-24 hours £3
24 hours £20

All done via ANPR.

Cater for commuters

[G-CPTN]

We have a station (one of the first - 1835 - the first station in the town was built by the Romans in AD85 ;-) without a car park, although there is space for half a dozen cars on Station Road.
We are planning to formalise an adjacent works compound left from drainage works as an 'official' car park for commuters.