Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

A10 Autostrada Bridge collapses

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

A10 Autostrada Bridge collapses

Old 14th Aug 2018, 11:54
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: MARS
Posts: 1,033
A10 Autostrada Bridge collapses

Just saw this on the news. Google street view shows all the hallmarks of Concrete Cancer in the base https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@44.42...6!9m2!1b1!2i42
Widger is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:45
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 1,621
Loads of photos here.....Genoa bridge collapse: Dozens feared dead in ?apocalyptic scene? | Daily Mail Online

Like a lot of Italian constructions of the 60s and 70s, there weren't always proper checks on the quality of materials, money being skimmed off left and right and here we have the eventual result, loss of innocent lives and a major headache for Genoa for the next few years.
SpringHeeledJack is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 53
Posts: 0
With the Miami bridge collapse someone post a link to this forum which has a lot of good discussion in it about various engineering incidents.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=443075

For this incident.

I suspect this sort of thing is going to become more and more common through out the world. There are several bridges in my local area built from soviet times which I subconsciously avoid driving under or on.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:26
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 67
Posts: 883
Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
Loads of photos here.....Genoa bridge collapse: Dozens feared dead in ?apocalyptic scene? | Daily Mail Online

Like a lot of Italian constructions of the 60s and 70s, there weren't always proper checks on the quality of materials, money being skimmed off left and right and here we have the eventual result, loss of innocent lives and a major headache for Genoa for the next few years.
The Corleone Construction Company?
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:34
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Cape Town, ZA
Age: 57
Posts: 236
Work to shore up the foundation of the bridge was being carried out at the time of the collapse but the structure was constantly monitored, the highway operator was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.
Happened during a storm. Wind load on deck, and/or possible flooding of foundation?
GordonR_Cape is online now  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:43
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 53
Posts: 0
It was a novel design. Dubious materials both concrete and re bar.

Looking at where it failed I suspect corrosion will play a part,

Also as well modern traffic loads are way way higher than it was designed for. Lorrys are bigger speeds are faster traffic jams lead to more breaking which gives higher lateral loads for fatigue.

Wonder if there is a general slowing down in one direction and acceleration in the other.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:58
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Not where I want to be
Age: 65
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
Loads of photos here.....Genoa bridge collapse: Dozens feared dead in ?apocalyptic scene? Daily Mail Online

Like a lot of Italian constructions of the 60s and 70s, there weren't always proper checks on the quality of materials, money being skimmed off left and right and here we have the eventual result, loss of innocent lives and a major headache for Genoa for the next few years.
Not the only "civilized" country where this has happened.
Per

Last edited by Ancient Mariner; 14th Aug 2018 at 14:25.
Ancient Mariner is online now  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 14:09
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 53
Posts: 0
there are a load of bridges in the UK that have similar issues to be honest.

I remember reading an article about the Kingston bridge in Glasgow being moved by heavy traffic laterally due to braking coming into the city.

I suspect these sort of failures will become more and more common. Accountants have the last call about if something is safe or not and how much is being spent on maint. if they can delay money being spent, bigger bonus and someone else's problem. the fact that it will cost twice as much to sort out really does not concern them.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 14:47
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,393
One of the positives from losing my council seat is that I am no longer responsible for several multi-storey car parks built out of rotting concrete.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 15:00
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
I posted on another thread a few weeks ago - the A10 is almost the 8th wonder of the world.

200-ish kms of non-stop tunnels and viaducts, some tunnels over 2kms long and some viaducts over 2kms long and about 120 metres high.

If this tragedy is due to poor quality materials and / or construction along the full length of the A10, the likely repair costs would make the cost of R3 at Heathrow seem like a four year old's monthly pocket money.

Very sad, of course, but also must be very worrying for the Italian Finance Ministry.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 15:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Slovakia
Age: 53
Posts: 135
There have been reports about lightning hitting the structure, I wonder if high electrical current could overheat steel which gave way. Corrosion, possibly substandard materials, who knows?

Corrosion was behind the collapse of concrete bridge in Prague which fell in December 2017:

Pali is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 16:10
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 53
Posts: 0
Lightning can burn through structural fixtures and rebar if the lightning grounding strips are not earthed properly or missing. While its doing that it will heat up and if there is water it will turn to steam and blow concrete away.

it looks like it dropped between the expansion joints between sections. No domino effect.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 16:25
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by Pali View Post
There have been reports about lightning hitting the structure, I wonder if high electrical current could overheat steel which gave way.
Likely not the steel - lightning rods designed to re-route lightning without harm are metal, and a tiny mass to heat compared to bridge elements, and still rarely melt.

Heating air or water within the concrete structure (cracks and voids) that then expands with the heat and cracks open the structure (pressure explosion) is possible - it is what makes tree trunks sometimes "explode" with a lightning strike (boiling of the tree sap > steam > "boom"). Which might be the "coup de grace" for concrete already weakened by corrosion, and blow out a critical spot.

Maybe.
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 17:08
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canadian Shield
Posts: 513
Kipling, I think...

THE careful text-books measure
(Let all who build beware!)
The load, the shock, the pressure
Material can bear.
So, when the buckled girder
Lets down the grinding span,
'The blame of loss, or murder,
Is laid upon the man.
Not on the Stuff—the Man!But in our daily dealing
With stone and steel, we find
The Gods have no such feeling
Of justice toward mankind.
To no set gauge they make us—
For no laid course prepare—
And presently o'ertake us
With loads we cannot bear:
Too merciless to bear.

The prudent text-books give it
In tables at the end
'The stress that shears a rivet
Or makes a tie-bar bend—
'What traffic wrecks macadam—
What concrete should endure—
but we, poor Sons of Adam
Have no such literature,
To warn us or make sure!

We hold all Earth to plunder—
All Time and Space as well—
Too wonder-stale to wonder
At each new miracle;
Till, in the mid-illusion
Of Godhead 'neath our hand,
Falls multiple confusion
On all we did or planned—
The mighty works we planned.

We only of Creation
(0h, luckier bridge and rail)
Abide the twin damnation—
To fail and know we fail.
Yet we - by which sole token
We know we once were Gods—
Take shame in being broken
However great the odds—
The burden of the Odds.

Oh, veiled and secret Power
Whose paths we seek in vain,
Be with us in our hour
Of overthrow and pain;
That we - by which sure token
We know Thy ways are true—
In spite of being broken,
Because of being broken
May rise and build anew
Stand up and build anew.



er340790 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 17:38
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 3,632
Also as well modern traffic loads are way way higher than it was designed for. Lorrys are bigger speeds are faster traffic jams lead to more breaking which gives higher lateral loads for fatigue.
Unfortunately apt typo there tescoapp!
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 08:22
  #16 (permalink)  
bnt
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland. (No, I just live here.)
Posts: 712
According to one report, there was work going on to improve the foundations before the failure. It seems pretty clear, from looking at what failed and what didn't, that the failure was at the base of the central tower. The pic linked at the top is of one of the supports for the roadway beyond the tower's reach i.e. if that alone had gone, the tower might still be standing.

The base of the tower that collapsed can be seen here.The images are over three years old (May 2015), and I can't see anything too dramatic there after a quick look, but we can't see what's happening below ground.
bnt is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 08:47
  #17 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 74
Posts: 1,859
What is 'worse'? - knowing that there is a weakness - or not realising that there is a fatal weakness?
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 09:11
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 53
Posts: 0
Apparently there had been issues with the bridge since it was built.

The top attachment flange design between top of that pillar and the deck was novel. So novel that its never been repeated.

I had a look at the google views of the concrete as well. Nothing to untoward obvious in fact pretty good actually for its age.

It was right next to the floodway so there maybe underground water undermining issues going on.

Bit like aviation accidents all respect and all that stuff to the families and those dealing with it. But the technical side of things does interest me a lot.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 09:25
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cowshitshire
Posts: 990
Just had a look on streetview - the deck of the bridge has 3 lines of concrete barriers installed, of the type used to protect highway workers. Obviously that was done long after the bridge was built and must have added a massive amount of weight and increased the wind loading.

Last edited by ZeBedie; 15th Aug 2018 at 09:56.
ZeBedie is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 10:21
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Newark'ish
Posts: 49
Looks like a classic case of on this particular day all the holes in the cheese lined up!
mikemmb is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.