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Lucy Letby

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Lucy Letby

Old 4th Jul 2018, 23:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Groupthink.
It didn't work that way for me. I was jury foreman at a trial for assault in Seattle. As jurors we were not allowed to discuss the case among ourselves until empaneled to reach a verdict. After hearing the testimony I was convinced the defendant was being railroaded and was determined to vote not guilty. In the States all 12 jurors must agree on a guilty verdict; a single holdout leads to a hung jury and either dismissal of charges or a re-trial. When all the evidence had been presented and we were sent to determine guilt or innocence I was amazed to hear that all the other jurors had the same opinion as me. As foreman I went through all the potential convictions and each was voted down. There was no 'groupthink' involved, just the thoughtful and careful analysis of information by all the jurors. After the verdict of innocent was delivered the defense attorney asked for damages from the State for holding an innocent man in jail for 6 months, causing the loss of his job, his apartment, not to mention time served. We as a jury agreed to this very unusual request. I wanted to censor the prosecuting attorney for incompetence, but didn't breach that idea to the other jurors. We did a good, conscientious job and reached the correct verdict.
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 07:48
  #22 (permalink)  
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TTN, the alternative quote is of course Abraham Lincoln
​​

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

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Old 5th Jul 2018, 08:37
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with Tankertrashnav and Winemaker. I was on a jury several years ago in a deeply unpleasant case. Although it seemed to all of us on the jury, within the first ten minutes in the jury room, that the evidence was overwhelmingly in favour if a guilty verdict we all agreed that we would take as long as it took to go through each individual element of the evidence to make sure we were reaching the correct decision. That process took a whole day, the verdict was still guilty, but we all took our responsibility seriously and soberly.
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 09:31
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Criminal cases were not my 'bread & butter" work, but I was involved in prosecuting and defending in a number of heavy cases over a period of thirty years.

Juries always, in my experience, got it right.

In those few cases where ultimately an appeal court took a different view it is because the Judge misdirected the jury on the law or important evidence has come to light at a later date and the appeal court orders a retrial.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 09:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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The evidence is so overwhelming against this woman, she has been released on bail (without charge I think).

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 09:32
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
The evidence is so overwhelming against this woman, she has been released on bail (without charge I think).
Correct, she hasn't been charged. She is on bail pending further inquirires as part of an ongoing investigation.

That's a perfectly normal procedure unless a suspect is considered to be a flight risk, which she presumably isn't.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:04
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post

That's a perfectly normal procedure...
For 7 counts of murder? Really?

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
The evidence is so overwhelming against this woman, she has been released on bail (without charge I think).

CG
Evidence? What evidence? Links please!
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:20
  #29 (permalink)  
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I also offer the thought that incidents that stop when someone leaves a unit is not evidence that that person was th perpetrator. In an international context of is called false flag.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 6th Jul 2018 at 10:38.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Evidence? What evidence? Links please!
Tongue in cheek, Sallyann, tongue in cheek.

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:59
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
For 7 counts of murder? Really?
No, no counts of murder (a "count", ie a charge, forms part of an indictment that is brought with a view to a trial).

I repeat, she hasn't been charged. Nor is she a flight risk. Nor is she, presumably, considered a danger to the public.

What's your point ?
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 11:14
  #32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
What's your point ?
Am I the only one that recognised the sarcasm in CG's post? OK, not count , perhaps potential count?
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 11:16
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Am I the only one that recognised the sarcasm in CG's post? OK, not count , perhaps potential count?
Phew! Thought it was me PN.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 11:57
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Am I the only one that recognised the sarcasm in CG's post?
I did - in fact he was doing OK up to that point.

OK, not count , perhaps potential count?
That's a fairly crucial distinction.

If you were to bang up everyone suspected of a crime while police investigate them and decide whether to lay charges, there wouldn't be any room in our prisons for convicted felons.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 12:07
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I was interested to find your forum and that you were discussing this case - there are obvious flaws to this case. I used to work in the NHS as a district nurse and became a Unison Representative and I am aware of staff bullying, and the culture of performance in the NHS -the blame culture</a>. Which Stacey Management Guru wrote about.

I consider that Lucy Letbe is innocent until proven guilty, and she appears a scapegoat for the corporate failings within the NHS.

Inside the NHS there is a shadow organisation.

It is this system that has led to this innocent nurse Lucy Letbe having been found a culprit - indeed it is rather like K in the Trial by Kafka.<br /><br />When I worked in the NHS I got six members of staff off punishment - but I found the people in Unison to be in with the management.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 07:18
  #36 (permalink)  
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CF, that fits my wife's view; she was also on District for a time.

Not nursing but I once did an inquiry to confirm the guilty party was indeed guilty as everyone knew him to be.

In the event I proved that the list of possible suspects was large and there was only one person who denied knowing what was common knowledge to every one else, and that individual had gone off sick. What is obvious to all is not necessarily the truth.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 11:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Catch Friday View Post
I was interested to find your forum and that you were discussing this case - there are obvious flaws to this case. I used to work in the NHS as a district nurse and became a Unison Representative and I am aware of staff bullying, and the culture of performance in the NHS -the blame culture</a>. Which Stacey Management Guru wrote about.

I consider that Lucy Letbe is innocent until proven guilty, and she appears a scapegoat for the corporate failings within the NHS.

Inside the NHS there is a shadow organisation.

It is this system that has led to this innocent nurse Lucy Letbe having been found a culprit - indeed it is rather like K in the Trial by Kafka.<br /><br />When I worked in the NHS I got six members of staff off punishment - but I found the people in Unison to be in with the management.
I absolutely agree that she is innocent unless found guilty in a court.

However, you appear to be rushing to just as hasty a conclusion as those who have assumed she's guilty; it's just that yours suggests that there is a conspiracy to frame an innocent person!

Either of those conclusions might turn out to be true; both of them might also turn out to be false...
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 13:47
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The lady in question is ahumble nurse and so it seems the old bill are quickly involved whereas Gosport and Shipman were Doctors and it seemed to take ages-decades in Shipmans case for seruious police interest
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 17:00
  #39 (permalink)  
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Consider this:

The police confirmed someone had been arrested in connection with . . .

The media have a name and pictures, presumably farcebook, before the police release it.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 02:56
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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We've recently been through this in Oz, lack of adequate governance being the finding. Of course you don't know at this stage, but the proposition that the nurse is being stitched up by the system to cover its own inadequacies is a valid one.

Bacchus Marsh stillborn scandal: Second review finds 11 baby deaths 'potentially avoidable' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Victorian Health Minister sacks board of Djerriwarrh Health Services over stillborn baby scandal - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...28-gpu0sh.html
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