UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system.
Seeing as BAE Systems sold all of the UK satellite manufacturing in the first place you can hardly expect them to be buying anything back.
The whole idea of a new UK GNSS is preposterous.
It's yet another example of politicians dreaming something up without consulting anyone who actually understands the reality.
It's yet another example of politicians dreaming something up without consulting anyone who actually understands the reality.
( Just to be clear, and to avoid any possible further confusion, no I don't think there will be any nationalisation or BAe buy back)
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I have always found the paper version of GPS (a map) was pretty reliable. Except, of course, in the Empty Quarter! In fact, using GPS once caused me a bit of a flutter when showing a couple R.N. types around Kuwait post Gulf War 1. We had a radio site literally on the border with Iraq and the matelots were busy picking up souvenirs from the debris left behind by the Iraqi forces. I looked at the GPS and was informed I was in Iraq by some distance. A quick check on the paper version (an aeronautical chart of the area), proved I was still in Kuwait.
I watched this documentary about the construction of Astra 2F by Astrium in the UK. Very interesting.
Astrium was formerly EADS Astrium and is now part of Airbus Space.and Defence. Sites at
Stevenage and Southhampton in the UK.
What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?
Astrium was formerly EADS Astrium and is now part of Airbus Space.and Defence. Sites at
Stevenage and Southhampton in the UK.
What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I am very cynical that the constellation could be used as a replacement GPS system without replacing all the satellites with ones designed for purpose.
On the other hand, as the USA did with Iridium, the UK has a chance to acquire a large satellite comma system for pennies, and at the same time save it as a UK technology base rather than let it be snatched up by the USA, or worse China through who has companies asking to bid.
https://www.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-...b-b24493315140
UK scales back plans for £5bn rival to Galileo satellite system
Ministers are set to scale back plans for a £5bn sovereign satellite navigation system — a project championed as a symbol of post-Brexit Britain — and are considering a groundbreaking alternative that would cost billions less and could draw US support.
Former prime minister Theresa May announced plans for a British rival to the EU’s Galileo system in 2018 when the UK was kicked out of the satellite project after Brexit; Boris Johnson endorsed the plan last year shortly after succeeding her. Mr Johnson’s allies confirmed the government was reviewing “Theresa May’s plan”, amid warnings about its high cost, but work is under way to see if Britain could develop a much cheaper satellite navigation capacity at a fraction of the estimated £5bn price.
Officials are exploring the potential for a system that would deliver the same civil and military tracking services as Galileo and GPS of the US while operating at a lower altitude and on a different frequency.
One option is to use OneWeb, the UK-licensed satellite operator that collapsed in March, as the platform for the new technology. Industry estimates say it would cost roughly $1bn to develop. OneWeb, which has 74 satellites in low earth orbit and plans for several hundred more, is further ahead on regulatory approvals than rivals, say several people close to the discussions. However, any such proposal would require government support for OneWeb, which is the focus of a bidding war after entering Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection three months ago. It would also require UK-based OneWeb to be sold to a British bidder.
Late last week Boris Johnson ordered ministers to move quickly to convene a meeting of the National Space Council, which has been in limbo since its launch a year ago, to fast-track decisions on a UK navigation service, as well as a series of other space-related initiatives. People close to the situation said no firm decision on the preferred option had yet been taken by the government and it remained “finely balanced”. But officials have consulted Airbus, the UK’s leading satellite maker, has confirmed that a low earth orbit navigation system could be developed at substantially lower cost.
Moreover, the US is pushing its partner in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance to avoid replicating the GPS system, said three people with knowledge of the situation. “The Americans do not think a British Galileo would be sufficiently different to GPS,” said one. “They understand the vulnerabilities of GPS. They want something technologically different.” US officials had been drawn to the idea that key navigation technology could be “hidden in plain sight” on up to 80 of OneWeb’s planned 648 satellites, making them harder to compromise, according to two people who held discussions with both US defence officials and the UK government.
In early March, Stuart Martin, chief executive of the Satellite Applications Catapult, told the Financial Times that while it would be challenging to develop this “cutting-edge” technology on satellites at low orbit, the UK had the expertise and it would be highly exportable. “This would offer something genuinely different that enhances GPS,” he said. “It is another way to achieve a global system at lower cost and it makes more economic sense.”
OneWeb, which has been locked in discussions with officials for several weeks, has pledged to move satellite production from Florida in the US to the UK if management wins government support for its bid. However, the company will also have to raise at least $1.5bn from private investors to fund the launch of the remainder of its satellites. The group was forced into bankruptcy protection after failing to secure funding from investors including its biggest backer SoftBank.
David Morris, the Tory MP who chairs the parliamentary space committee, said the UK should seize the opportunity to support OneWeb. “Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service. The government could put a fraction of that into the LEO OneWeb system, securing a global commercial operation for the UK.”
On the other hand, as the USA did with Iridium, the UK has a chance to acquire a large satellite comma system for pennies, and at the same time save it as a UK technology base rather than let it be snatched up by the USA, or worse China through who has companies asking to bid.
https://www.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-...b-b24493315140
UK scales back plans for £5bn rival to Galileo satellite system
Ministers are set to scale back plans for a £5bn sovereign satellite navigation system — a project championed as a symbol of post-Brexit Britain — and are considering a groundbreaking alternative that would cost billions less and could draw US support.
Former prime minister Theresa May announced plans for a British rival to the EU’s Galileo system in 2018 when the UK was kicked out of the satellite project after Brexit; Boris Johnson endorsed the plan last year shortly after succeeding her. Mr Johnson’s allies confirmed the government was reviewing “Theresa May’s plan”, amid warnings about its high cost, but work is under way to see if Britain could develop a much cheaper satellite navigation capacity at a fraction of the estimated £5bn price.
Officials are exploring the potential for a system that would deliver the same civil and military tracking services as Galileo and GPS of the US while operating at a lower altitude and on a different frequency.
One option is to use OneWeb, the UK-licensed satellite operator that collapsed in March, as the platform for the new technology. Industry estimates say it would cost roughly $1bn to develop. OneWeb, which has 74 satellites in low earth orbit and plans for several hundred more, is further ahead on regulatory approvals than rivals, say several people close to the discussions. However, any such proposal would require government support for OneWeb, which is the focus of a bidding war after entering Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection three months ago. It would also require UK-based OneWeb to be sold to a British bidder.
Late last week Boris Johnson ordered ministers to move quickly to convene a meeting of the National Space Council, which has been in limbo since its launch a year ago, to fast-track decisions on a UK navigation service, as well as a series of other space-related initiatives. People close to the situation said no firm decision on the preferred option had yet been taken by the government and it remained “finely balanced”. But officials have consulted Airbus, the UK’s leading satellite maker, has confirmed that a low earth orbit navigation system could be developed at substantially lower cost.
Moreover, the US is pushing its partner in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance to avoid replicating the GPS system, said three people with knowledge of the situation. “The Americans do not think a British Galileo would be sufficiently different to GPS,” said one. “They understand the vulnerabilities of GPS. They want something technologically different.” US officials had been drawn to the idea that key navigation technology could be “hidden in plain sight” on up to 80 of OneWeb’s planned 648 satellites, making them harder to compromise, according to two people who held discussions with both US defence officials and the UK government.
In early March, Stuart Martin, chief executive of the Satellite Applications Catapult, told the Financial Times that while it would be challenging to develop this “cutting-edge” technology on satellites at low orbit, the UK had the expertise and it would be highly exportable. “This would offer something genuinely different that enhances GPS,” he said. “It is another way to achieve a global system at lower cost and it makes more economic sense.”
OneWeb, which has been locked in discussions with officials for several weeks, has pledged to move satellite production from Florida in the US to the UK if management wins government support for its bid. However, the company will also have to raise at least $1.5bn from private investors to fund the launch of the remainder of its satellites. The group was forced into bankruptcy protection after failing to secure funding from investors including its biggest backer SoftBank.
David Morris, the Tory MP who chairs the parliamentary space committee, said the UK should seize the opportunity to support OneWeb. “Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service. The government could put a fraction of that into the LEO OneWeb system, securing a global commercial operation for the UK.”
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.
Of course, they would have to be replaced. All that could be salvaged are the orbital slots and the frequency allocations - which were not obtained for GNSS use and would need regulatory approval.
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It is a bit like the VHS. Betamax, Philips systems. If one had come in years before the others, who would have invented two others.
The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?
GPS may be vulnerable but how long would a new system be less vulnerable.?
The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?
GPS may be vulnerable but how long would a new system be less vulnerable.?
Don't worry. It'll never happen.
how long would a new system be less vulnerable
The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?
We've got the best legal system in the world, the best health service in the world, a world beating Covid-19 tracking system, the world's best climate, the world's best universities; and I'm sure our virtually unique (outside of the Commonwealth countries) three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world.
Most of these claims are false; however we are among the best in most of the fields, save the for the climate over which we as little old UK has no control.
Our air of self importance and supremacy has got us where we are today; largely deluded.
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ATNotts
My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesmen / women in the world, but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in many experience.
A friend used to use the analogy of setting up a house in the UK where you have an unlimited budget so apart from the actual land, and possibly (but not guaranteed) the building there of,which British products would you put in it ? As I like music I know I would use UK Hi-Fi (I do) which is probably the best in the world, however at significant cost, and all other products from flooring on up would probably be sourced outside of the UK which says it all really. "World beating" is something we have largely left behind in the race to make things cheaper, much the same has occurred in the US as well.
Kind regards
Mr Mac
My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesmen / women in the world, but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in many experience.
A friend used to use the analogy of setting up a house in the UK where you have an unlimited budget so apart from the actual land, and possibly (but not guaranteed) the building there of,which British products would you put in it ? As I like music I know I would use UK Hi-Fi (I do) which is probably the best in the world, however at significant cost, and all other products from flooring on up would probably be sourced outside of the UK which says it all really. "World beating" is something we have largely left behind in the race to make things cheaper, much the same has occurred in the US as well.
Kind regards
Mr Mac
Last edited by Mr Mac; 22nd Jun 2020 at 13:17.
"I'm sure our virtually unique (outside of the Commonwealth countries) three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world"
Absolutely - until you stand on one in the dark and you're crippled for life.................
Absolutely - until you stand on one in the dark and you're crippled for life.................
The UK is fairly good at lots of things - and very good at some others - things like finance, music, very high end tech (Dyson, RR, F1 cars), some biological sciences
Unfortunately these aren't were most people work
Unfortunately these aren't were most people work
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Not sure I am in the market for F1 car or a McLaren / Bently etc and have had Dyson product and after a lot of discussion reached a financial settlement with said company over damage caused to carpets not to mention reliability. As for finance I think it is a two edged sword and for an individual or indeed company I have never found UK institutions to be any good in that line even when we were UK based. They are very good when times are good, but appalling when 2008 came about, hence we as a company no longer use UK Banks or Insurers. By Biological sciences I assume you mean research rather than production. As for Music, yes I agree though probably because English is the "world" language which undoubtedly helps. As you say these are small areas of the economy, and not where most of the UK population work, and as we have such a large population this specialisation would really only work if we were say the size of Switzerland. Indeed if you count Swiss leading brands in some of the fields you mention eg Roche,Suzler, and any number of banks, then perhaps that is what the UK should follow, but what do you do with the other circa 40m people !!
Cheers
Mr Mac
Mr Mac
Our salesmen (and women!!) may well be excellent, however so many of them, when confronted with a non-native English speaker are left with little alternative but to wave their arms wildly and shout very slowly in English! This puts us at an immediate disadvantage against our European brethren in many cases. My former German colleagues were usually fluent in at least two foreign languages, generally English, plus Spanish and or French and or Italian.
No we can all sit their high and might and say "everyone speaks English" but that simply isn't true, and people you are selling to are always more comfortable when talking in their own language. Talking "foreign" for any length of time can be mentally tiring.
Cheers!
ATN
My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesman in the world but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in man
No we can all sit their high and might and say "everyone speaks English" but that simply isn't true, and people you are selling to are always more comfortable when talking in their own language. Talking "foreign" for any length of time can be mentally tiring.
Cheers!
ATN
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ATNotts
Yes I should have added women (I have altered that in the post ) and your observation re the language is unfortunately quite true. In our office we use German and English commonly but we have (I just checked with HR) 9 other languages spoken by our staff at fluent technical level. As you say we have around 51% German staff and all have a good if not excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Cheers or should I say Prost !
Mr Mac
Yes I should have added women (I have altered that in the post ) and your observation re the language is unfortunately quite true. In our office we use German and English commonly but we have (I just checked with HR) 9 other languages spoken by our staff at fluent technical level. As you say we have around 51% German staff and all have a good if not excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Cheers or should I say Prost !
Mr Mac