Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

This is just so wrong

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

This is just so wrong

Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:25
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 23,412
This is just so wrong

Two scumbags break into a 79 year olds home to rob it, one of them is armed with a screwdriver, they force him into the kitchen a scuffle breaks out, he kills one of them defending himself and now he is remanded in custody facing a murder charge!

Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - BBC News

He wouldn't be facing anything if they hadn't broke into his house and assaulted him in the first place . I would thank him for his community service! well done that man, just a shame the other is still at large.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:34
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 83
Posts: 697
I can understand that where one person kills another, in whatever circumstances, then there are procedures that have to be attended to and might involve the arrest of the culprit. What I am surprised at is the charge of Murder rather than Manslaughter and the need to retain the man in custody.

I would thank him for his community service! well done that man
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial. That's mob lynching and belongs in the Southern States of the US 100 years ago.
funfly is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:40
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 85
Posts: 1,376
Definitely something isn’t quite right here. I agree a charge of murder as opposed to manslaughter, seems extreme. Something we don’t know, perhaps?
goudie is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:43
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 277
He hasn't been charged, he's been arrested on suspicion of murder. He's probably been taken to the police station, and as it was the middle of the night any interviews wouldn't have started until the morning.
k3k3 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:49
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 69
Posts: 412
As k3k3 says, the police had little choice but to arrest him on suspicion of murder, which is much the same as I speculated in this earlier reply on another thread about this: UK politics - Hamsterwheel
VP959 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:49
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 23,412
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial. That's mob lynching and belongs in the Southern States of the US 100 years ago.
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:56
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 69
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
The law says you can use reasonable force to try to prevent someone committing a crime, I believe. "reasonable" is the usual test, "in the view of the man on the Clapham omnibus".

In this case a man died following a struggle, that was part of a robbery. It may have been accidental that he got stabbed with his own weapon, it may have been deliberate and he was stabbed with another weapon. One might be considered reasonable, in self-defence, the other may well not be considered reasonable at all, and result in a charge being brought.

Personally, as I wrote on the other thread, I think we should have the right, in law, to protect our own homes, much as some states in the US have such a right in law. At the moment we don't, other than the "apprehend using reasonable force" that seems allowable. Killing someone who is carrying out a robbery most probably isn't reasonable force, unless it happens under certain circumstances, as Tony Martin found out when he shot and killed a burglar.
VP959 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:56
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 57
Posts: 3,236
Two scumbags break into a 79 year olds home to rob it, one of them is armed with a screwdriver, they force him into the kitchen a scuffle breaks out, he kills one of them defending himself and now he is remanded in custody facing a murder charge!
NUTLOOSE, may I enquire as to where you have ascertained these 'facts'?

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S FACING A MURDER CHARGE?


If someone is found in a house dead then of course there will be arrests. It's procedure to do so. If the 'facts' as you have stated them turnout to be accurate then of course the 78 yr old should be free to go but until the 'facts' are known, this is how things are done.
TURIN is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 14:58
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 83
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
Totally agree with you.
I regret that I responded that way as there was a thread on here recently about a US man who had shot a burglar and I was disgusted by the response of many posters with the "shoot 'em all, it's what they deserve" attitude.
funfly is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 15:08
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
I believe the law does allow reasonable force to be used in defence of your property.

That does mean, though, that there has to be a process to decide if this is indeed what has happened.

It might well be that the CPS decide not to press charges in this case.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 15:32
  #11 (permalink)  
ImageGear
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
The problem arises from what is judged to be reasonable force and what were the intentions of the criminals.

The Criminals: If a weapon is carried, it must have been their intention to use it, either to deter any resistance or to eliminate any witness/s to the crime. (If you want to own a gun, be assured that you are comfortable with the outcomes when required to use it.)

The Property Owner: Had no perception that he was about to be burgled. He was not in possession of a defensive weapon at the time of the burglar's entry (assumed).

He was obviously threatened with stabbing. (He did not know whether it was to deter him from resisting or to remove him as a witness, or some other reason of insanity, were they terrorists?

Was he allowed to leave the scene freely and without injury? I suspect not. Consequently, self-defence takes on a whole new meaning.

Not Guilty M'lud.

IG
 
Old 4th Apr 2018, 15:55
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Moved a bit west...
Posts: 13
Quote from the BBC news website:
He said there had been a "definite improvement" on tackling burglaries in the area thanks to an active Neighbourhood Watch scheme.
Certainly has...
Wan Wei Luke is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:14
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 449
Well, there certainly will be an improvement from now on.
Seems a rather extreme attitude by the Police on the face of it.

Let's just see what criminal record the deceased has, and what the Police will do to protect the man attacked, and local residents.

I can't imagine what terror the chap must have been in, to be manhandled, threatened and woken up in the middle of the night to find two aggressive intruders in his property.
Icare9 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:17
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Lakeside
Posts: 428
This may be down to vocabulary. I speak and write merkin. There is a difference between “Murder” and “Homicide”.

Homicide sounds dire. It needn’t be. It means: death at the hands of another.

Even in the US there are constraints against using deadly force, even in defense.

Keep this at the tip of your tongue when asked what happened in your home, and the intruder is shot dead.

“I feared for my life, and shot...”
Concours77 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:37
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Age: 61
Posts: 969
I remember living in Joburg in the late 70,s with 3 other UK work students, when we got a visit from the local Police who came to see if we were settling in ok, and to make sure were were aware of local crime rate. We were surprised to be asked if we had thought of buying a gun for self defence (he recommended a 9mm) which we had not. Out of interest we asked what the rules where regards discharging the weapon, and were some what surprised at the answer. Basically we were told you have to fire two warning shots before aiming at the person, but the officer then said "Ach dont worry about that, just make sure you fire 3 shots ! " We did not take his advise and survived our tour un-burgled, but I must admit to having had a gun elsewhere when I have worked in Africa for longer spells.

Regards
Mr Mac
Mr Mac is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:53
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,438
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
However what one is allowed to use is whatever force the law deems fit. And on the face of it this case does sound a little unlikely, so the chances are, as others have said, there are things we don't know yet.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:55
  #17 (permalink)  
Tabs please !
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Biffins Bridge
Posts: 757
I had a similar discussion with a friendly policeman. The advice was to fire three bullets with two of them ending up in the ceiling. It doesn't matter which order they are fired as you have a plausible story that warnings were given before firing the fatal shot.
B Fraser is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 16:57
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 75
Posts: 3,874
A lot of heat on this thread but I think that in these circumstances the police are only doing what they have to do. The fact that this gentleman has been taken into custody does not mean that he will be charged and as Andy _S says it will be a for the DPP to decide whether to proceed with a prosecution, during which time the chap will almost certainly be on bail.

Personally, if the facts are as have been reported, I would think that it is highly unlikely that he will face any charges. Let's just wait and see before starting to froth at the mouth!
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 17:57
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: orlando
Posts: 22
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but what do you think this is? Injustice??

Come On get a grip. We can't have a 79 year old hooligan killing people, in the course of trying to protect his disabled wife and himself.. People who are out and about armed with tools of the trade, looking for ways to feed their habit. Well look at the unsociable hours they work.

Isn't the law just marvelous and it protects you all the way? Anyway.
John_Reid is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2018, 18:29
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Cheltenham, UK
Posts: 135
I seem to remember the police/CPS will look at what weapon you used and where in the house to see if it was self defence as such, and I read this man was forced into his kitchen so a knife would be readily available.

If on the other hand, he had a knife by his bedside then he may not be so lucky.
BirdmanBerry is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.