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Sergei Skripal

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Sergei Skripal

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Old 13th Mar 2018, 18:31
  #241 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I have no faith in any MP or minister, or even the PM, telling us the truth, but I do have the utmost faith in the honesty of my former colleagues. It is they who have identified the agent, and I very much doubt that they are lying on behalf of the government, in fact I am sure that they would fight tooth and nail to make sure that the government was told the facts, not some made up fantasy.
I wasn't questioning the veracity of your former colleagues, but the conclusion about the cause of death of David Kelly.

In different circumstances, such a death might have been attributed to the Russians (though I concede that there was no reason for the Russians to be concerned about DK - merely the current conjecture about the suicides of Russian émigrés).
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 18:34
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. Don't forget that one of them, on detachment to the FCO, took his own life because he felt deeply unhappy with the way the government of the day had misled people over the dodgy dossier, and had spoken out against it.
With all due respect, doesn’t that implore us to answer the questions that need to be asked before acting. Or as I suspect, are some questions more likely to produce answers that deflect certain people from the answers they’d prefer.

When it comes to trust, I’m tight fisted.

David Kelly was obviously a man with a conscience.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:08
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Trump goes on the record ...

Yeah, as soon as we get the facts straight. And we're going to be speaking with the British today. We're speaking with Theresa May today. And as soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn Russia or whoever it may be.
From about 3.20 on the video

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...poisoning.html

JAS
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:19
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
I wasn't questioning the veracity of your former colleagues, but the conclusion about the cause of death of David Kelly.

In different circumstances, such a death might have been attributed to the Russians (though I concede that there was no reason for the Russians to be concerned about DK - merely the current conjecture about the suicides of Russian émigrés).
I met him briefly, and knew his line manager fairly well. Knowing some of the background, I'm personally convinced that the conspiracy theories about his death are just that, conspiracy theories. He'd been unhappy about other things for some time, had a long running dispute with HR over his grade, and was generally not in the best frame of mind even before the events that led to him taking his own life.

No one I spoke to that knew him well was surprised at what he'd done, most seemed to have the view that there was more they, or others that knew him, could have done to help him, but they failed.

If you want some insight into some of the background, the testimonies given at the Hutton Enquiry by his line manager at Porton, and his real HR manager (not the misleading stuff from the FCO) give a good view about some of the internal battles he'd been fighting with management. There was added tension because he'd been seconded to the FCO for far too long, and he was under pressure to come back to his owning establishment, for reasons associated with his own physical and mental health as much as anything else. This was something he didn't want to do.

All told I'm convinced that he was already under a lot of stress, was not in the best of health, and being used as a scapegoat when he was named as Gilligan's source was just more than he could take.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:22
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After the fall of the criminal dictatorship that was communism Russia had the opportunity to become part of the free world and all that it offers with democratic elections. Instead it has continued its history of a thousand years of brutal dictatorships. The people have only ever known servitude to powerful rulers and have no concept of or wish to embrace a free democracy. They seem to respect an all powerful ruler and consider that Putin gives them self respect on the world stage..
Another parallel with Hitler between the wars.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:26
  #246 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
All told I'm convinced that he was already under a lot of stress, was not in the best of health, and being used as a scapegoat when he was named as Gilligan's source was just more than he could take.
I bow to your (as usual) superior knowledge.

I remain impressed by your contributions to this (and other) thread(s).

Having (understandably) retired, your contribution to your previous employers (not just the most recent) must be missed.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:47
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Porton had the signatures for the novichok agents. That's how it was detected and identified so quickly.

You do not need samples of the agent to identify it, in fact any organisation would avoid holding agents like this if at all possible, for a host of reasons, apart from the obvious ones of regulatory inspections and legislation. All you need is the signature to positively identify it, so that's all you hold.
Really so who are all these people allowed to go in and inspect ?

As for Legislation? ................ govt is quite happy to "interpret" legislation in whatever way it see's fit.

The catch all of needed for National Security allows them to do what they want.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:52
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
I bow to your (as usual) superior knowledge.

I remain impressed by your contributions to this (and other) thread(s).

Having (understandably) retired, your contribution to your previous employers (not just the most recent) must be missed.
Thanks, but I rather think they were glad to get rid of me in the end!

I was too "old school", believed that as a member of the Scientific Civil Service (which is what I'd joined as a young graduate) I had a public duty to seek the truth and tell it, and that that public duty should supersede any shenanigans by politicians. Those coming along after me tended not to think the same way

I was too outspoken, managed to seriously annoy at least two ministers, had momentary infamy as the first person to use the F word in a meeting with the MOD's Chief Scientific Advisor (because he deserved it in my view) and was subsequently told that I'd just made "a career-limiting statement" by one of those wielding power within Whitehall. The funny thing was that a certain, rather outspoken, former Permanent Secretary, who retired in 2007, told me he thought I'd done exactly the right thing by speaking my mind. He remarked that it had never done him any harm, IIRC, and he was widely reported for using the same word several times in 2001.

Sadly there is little room for honour, decency and truthfulness in modern government, IMHO, that all started to slip away when "sound bites" came to dominate politics.

My boss retired a short time later, another person who had no time for people who were less than 100% open and honest.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 19:54
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
No, but as some may have guessed, my last place of work was there, so I know pretty much what was and what was not done.

The analysis of this agent that it matched the signature of a novichok agent was done there, the dodgy dossier was not at all, it had nothing at all to do with any of my former colleagues, to the best of my knowledge.

At the time there was as much informal chatter in the corridors there about how dodgy the dossier was as there was anywhere else.

Yes, I do believe in false flag actions, but more importantly I know and trust my former colleagues and they simply would not get involved in stuff like that. Don't forget that one of them, on detachment to the FCO, took his own life because he felt deeply unhappy with the way the government of the day had misled people over the dodgy dossier, and had spoken out against it.
Nobody questioning your ex colleagues, however what cannot be proven is that someone with a completely different agenda was willing to do something to gain advantage from it.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:00
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Really so who are all these people allowed to go in and inspect ?

As for Legislation? ................ govt is quite happy to "interpret" legislation in whatever way it see's fit.

The catch all of needed for National Security allows them to do what they want.
AFAIK, the novichok agents were never subject to international random control inspections and were only ever held within Russia. They may not have even been listed on the international list of agreed chemical warfare agents, I don't know enough about them to say whether they were or not.

The international inspections of all the listed chemical and biological agents (and nuclear too, although I never worked in that area) are pretty tough. if you're responsible for an establishment or lab you don't know when the team will arrive until just before they walk in, you don't know what nationalities will be in the team, you don't know what they will ask to inspect, you just have an obligation to show them anything that they ask to see - there are no doors closed to inspection teams.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:02
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Sadly there is little room for honour, decency and truthfulness in modern government, IMHO, that all started to slip away when "sound bites" came to dominate politics.
There is and will always be.
But there are always people who happy to sell out to seek whatever advantage they can gain.
In 1940 there were some people who would happily have sold out to Herr Hitler to gain personal advantage.
It's nothing new as many "Lords" gained their titles and land from selling out to one side or another.
Gov't seek to limit what the public know because in many cases the Public would not condone what people do.
Power corrupts and a sniff at power is all people need.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:05
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The international inspections of all the listed chemical and biological agents (and nuclear too, although I never worked in that area) are pretty tough..
The unlisted ones and they will exist are the ones where you can hide stuff, dressed up as "Private" sector research establishments but just an off the books part of Government easily deniable.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:12
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Originally Posted by MungoP View Post
After the fall of the criminal dictatorship that was communism Russia had the opportunity to become part of the free world and all that it offers with democratic elections. Instead it has continued its history of a thousand years of brutal dictatorships. The people have only ever known servitude to powerful rulers and have no concept of or wish to embrace a free democracy. They seem to respect an all powerful ruler and consider that Putin gives them self respect on the world stage..
Another parallel with Hitler between the wars.
Over the years I've met a few Russians, socially, and nothing to do with work. They were probably some of the friendliest and entertaining people I've known, especially if out drinking.

However, one common factor seemed to be a general distrust in democracy as a principle, a powerful belief that all countries needed strong leadership and a very strong feeling of patriotism for Mother Russia.

During the fading years of the former Soviet Union they had weak leadership, with Yeltsin being probably the worst example, staggering around drunk half the time. When Vladimir Putin showed himself to be a strong leader, I suspect he was exactly what the Russian people were looking for at that time. He filled the vacuum, restored some pride back to the Russian people, and that meant more to them than democracy, I think.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:20
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post

However, one common factor seemed to be a general distrust in democracy as a principle,
Afraid you don't need to go to Russia to see that...........

West quite happily preaches democracy and the you constantly get
A US Govt (President / Congress and Senate) that relies of Billions in donations to continue the status quo.

A Uk Govt that has rarely ever been elected with 50% of the votes of the people and at local elections it frigged in so many places that a Tory will rarely get elected in many places in the North or someone from Labour in the South.

Role of establishment is to look after establishment not the people.

The Animal Farm parody of Stalinism was correct but now many Western Countrys mirror it but use different methods in doing so.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:33
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I worked in the security of Pathogens in the former CIS in a previous life, held at the various NCDC's (US equivalent CDC) over a number of years.

Let me tell you straight from the horses mouth.

Pathogen escape from Russia is impossible, the security surrounding them verges on extreme paranoia... seen it.. been there... got the t-shirt... security is watertight and then unbelievable measures on top of that. They are Pro's.

You want to do something nasty?

Take a few thou (dollars infinitely preferred) to one of the CIS NCDC's and bribe the staff... their Pathogen Asset Control software is crap.... and the physical security is worse. I know 'em all, got that t-shirt as well.

Make sure when you enter the crumbling buildings the bricks don't fall down and hit you on the head (as nearly happened once to me...)

My guess is this wasn't Russia, I'd look more likely at the security of the CIS Labs.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:38
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post

My guess is this wasn't Russia, I'd look more likely at the security of the CIS Labs.
Look at all deaths of security personnel in last 6 months or job changes.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:40
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The fact that the Russian response to any UK punitive action (whatever that may be) is stated to meet that with an opposite retaliation shows (to me) that they are concerned.
If not then they would have simply ignored Mrs May deadline.
The key strategy should be to lobby for a broad international consensus to augment any actions that we choose to take.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:57
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Dstl Porton Down is a few miles way... that is coincidental.. but still.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 20:58
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All the fuss is about a man who wore the uniform of a soldier, sworn to the flag of his country, the very worse kind of spy, a double agent. He was tried and convicted of high treason. We on the other hand seem ready to go to war with his country. Is he worth it, how would we feel if it had been one of our low lives, a traitor.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 21:03
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All the fuss is about a man who wore the uniform of a soldier, sworn to the flag of his country, the very worse kind of spy, a double agent. He was tried and convicted of high treason. We on the other hand seem ready to go to war with his country. Is he worth it, how would we feel if it had been one of our low lives, a traitor.
Indeed Chronus he was a traitor that likely sent many agents to their deaths in dodgier countries. He elicits no sympathy from me. The collateral damage eventually must lay at his door. for he is ultimately responsible.

The manner of his current demise however I suspect was engineered to discredit Russia, either by local state actors or further afield.
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