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NRA & profiling

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NRA & profiling

Old 23rd Feb 2018, 18:05
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NRA & profiling

All the shooters and militia in USA were home grown nutters. USA demands all pax information be fed to them before pax board a/c towards USA. (Don't know about ships, trains or buses.) A/c have even been turned around in flight, or pax refused entry based on profiling and wrongful identification. Profiling profiling profiling of foreigners.
Yet their risk is within and innocent alien pax are considered greater risk than all the muppet macho muppets who can buy an arsenal with no profiling.
The lack of balanced logic defeats me. It is such a simple argument to pose. Why do the TV anchors not do so.
I watched a USA history program and the 2nd amendment was a check and glance inserted so that the populace could take up arms against a government that might attempt to by-pass democracy. If that was true, and why not in a documentary, then the NRA has its wires crossed and so does everybody else.

The debate needs transparency and honesty.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 18:17
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
All the shooters and militia in USA were home grown nutters. USA demands all pax information be fed to them before pax board a/c towards USA. (Don't know about ships, trains or buses.) A/c have even been turned around in flight, or pax refused entry based on profiling and wrongful identification. Profiling profiling profiling of foreigners.
Yet their risk is within and innocent alien pax are considered greater risk than all the muppet macho muppets who can buy an arsenal with no profiling.
The lack of balanced logic defeats me. It is such a simple argument to pose. Why do the TV anchors not do so.
I watched a USA history program and the 2nd amendment was a check and glance inserted so that the populace could take up arms against a government that might attempt to by-pass democracy. If that was true, and why not in a documentary, then the NRA has its wires crossed and so does everybody else.

The debate needs transparency and honesty.
The NRA doesn't want the truth to get in the way of a good story; as is the case with many political lobbyists, and not just in the USA. You'll find a similar deliberate ignorance of truth and logic somewhat closer to home.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 18:23
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But my case is the NRA is being targeted with emotional bullets by the anti-brigade. They need some irrefutable logic bullets that can open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf. KISS.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 18:25
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Sorry.

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight...e-the-nra.html
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 18:43
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
I watched a USA history program and the 2nd amendment was a check and glance inserted so that the populace could take up arms against a government that might attempt to by-pass democracy. If that was true, and why not in a documentary, then the NRA has its wires crossed and so does everybody else.
Not quite. The idea was that if 'the people' had arms and could form a 'well regulated militia' there would be less need for the government to have a full time standing army that they might use to threaten the individual states or the people.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:02
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One is a terrorist threat, related, among other things, to our misdeeds in the Middle East, the other, a domestic issue. The two are unrelated.

Using actual logic, the 2nd amendment arguments are easily dispatched, academically. Any ideas of deposing a tyrant are monumentally naive, and we've long since gone from living in a frontier to a dystopian Wild West of sorts, the latter, thanks largely to the gun lobby and our failed "war" on drugs.

I agree with you RAT 5, in that the real problem exists in the rhetoric that keeps both sides of the "gun debate" from having an actual, logical conversation, one without broad agendas and unwavering positions set in stone, fed by past histories and current fears, both of which come with attendant misplaced anger.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:08
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
But my case is the NRA is being targeted with emotional bullets by the anti-brigade. They need some irrefutable logic bullets that can open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf. KISS.
Actual criminology says that gun ownership by law-abiding Americans reduces crime, and the only change in the law that might have some beneficial impact on crime is a system similar to Canada's, where we have to pass a safety course and background check before buying a gun. It does little to stop criminals, but does reduce the odds of crazy people getting guns.

Needless to say, actual science, facts and logic have no effect on the anti-gunners.

And I saw a report today that the kid who shot up the school had previously been reported to the police for holding a gun to someone's head. If that was true, the police should have arrested him and sent him to jail for years for felony assault... in which case the shooting would never have happened.

But that would have required them to do their job.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:19
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Any ideas of deposing a tyrant are monumentally naive
Ignoring centuries of history including such as the American Revolution; the First and Second Afghan Wars; Irish Rebellion of 1916; elements of Vietnam War for starters. Wars and revolutions are not fought by weapons but by Men, Morals and Materiel, in that order.

We didn’t need to profile this killer or most of the earlier, just had to act, but we lack the political will to stop them. These guys usually have a parade of flags flying as to how dangerous they are, which makes the Paddock in Las Vegas stand out—no indications.

MG23, is it true the only crimes associated with the Canadian registration scheme were for not complying with the scheme—a self-licking ice cream cone. And, no crime was ever stopped by it.

GF
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:24
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
One is a terrorist threat, related, among other things, to our misdeeds in the Middle East, the other, a domestic issue. The two are unrelated.
Both are related: they kill innocent civilians.

"A well regulated militia" would not be the sort of threat to the country's own citizens the way that "... people to keep[ing] and bear[ing] arms" in the USA are such a clearly demonstrated threat. If the "well regulated" part of that sentence is not seriously addressed, then "... people to keep[ing] and bear[ing] arms" will continue to be the biggest day-to-day threat to the security of the citizens of the free State.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:25
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
MG23, is it true the only crimes associated with the Canadian registration scheme were for not complying with the scheme—a self-licking ice cream cone. And, no crime was ever stopped by it.
I don't know, but I'd expect that to be the case. Simple fact is, if you're criminally-minded, you're not likely to get a gun license here in the first place, so a registry is just a list of guns owned by some of the most law-abiding people in the country. And a great way for criminals to find out who to rob for the guns they want ('Hey, Bob on 23rd St has an AK47!'*).

If that kid had been Canadian, there's no way he'd legally have had a gun, because a psycho like that wouldn't have passed the safety course, he'd have a hard time finding two people to vouch for him on his application, and the police reports would have failed the background check.

* - As an amusing side-note, I believe Canada has more ungelded, full-auto AK47s than America. We're just not allowed to shoot them any more because scary (and, no, I don't have one).
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:27
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Both are related: they kill innocent civilians.
I cannot argue with that, Trossie.

we lack the political will to stop them
That will is currently being carried forward on the backs of those brave kids and survivors of Parkland. We should all be very, very proud of these kids for standing up and saying, "Enough!" in the face of the NRA funded conservatives that drag out the same old tired, "now is not the time to talk about guns".

These guys usually have a parade of flags flying as to how dangerous they are
Can you imagine the shrieking wails from the right if national intelligence and law enforcement were to start scrutinizing gun owners for signs of mental instability?

As an amusing side-note, I believe Canada has more ungelded, full-auto AK47s than America. We're just not allowed to shoot them any more because scary.
We've got tens of millions of AR-15s here. You have a number for your AKs by chance?

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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:35
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
Can you imagine the shrieking wails from the right if national intelligence and law enforcement were to start scrutinizing gun owners for signs of mental instability?
They don't really have to. They just have to, you know, do their job when someone reports the gun-toting loony for being a violent nutter.

From what I've seen online, the police had made an agreement with this school to not arrest kids for committing crimes because it made the school look bad. So instead of a bad crime rating, they got a bunch of dead kids.

We've got tens of millions of AR-15s here. You have a number for your AKs by chance?
No, but I've seen comparison numbers quoted online which may or may not be true. Note that I was specifically referring to real AK47s, and not the ones converted to sporting use (or the cheap Chinese clones that we're still allowed to buy here).
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 19:39
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They don't really have to. They just have to, you know, do their job when someone reports the gun-toting loony for being a violent nutter.
To think that "we will always see them coming" is a valid argument is a perfect illustration of the problem RAT 5 posits. The gun debate in its current form is bereft of logic.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:03
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post




Well going by that chart the biggest danger to America was the election of Obama..
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:06
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This is a bit of a black comedy:

"If you have a gun fire problem, add more guns".

"If you have a petrol fire problem, add more petrol".
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:07
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Can you imagine the shrieking wails from the right if national intelligence and law enforcement were to start scrutinizing gun owners for signs of mental instability?
Nobody, you or l, is saying we need to go around scrutinizing law-abiding, functioning people for mental instability. Just get a court order, obtained by police or family, restricting known problem people from bearing dangerous weapons. Show a judge that there exists cause for concern. Everyone of these killers displayed ample reason for concern. Heck Lanza’s mother was scared of her own son. The police had ample evidence in Parkland, San Bernardino, Boston.

If the police won’t act in these blatant cases, how do you suppose they’ll act in less obvious ones?

Straw man arguments only weaken your case.


GF
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:12
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Straw man arguments only weaken your case.
Assuring public safety by thinking that we will "always see them coming" is an argument based upon a fallacy.

Well going by that chart the biggest danger to America was the election of Obama..
No doubt, he was good for gun sales* as is, apparently, the mass slaughter of school children.

*Mainly by ginned up NRA conservative's fallacious arguments that Obama was "gonna take our guns away!".
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:18
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
Assuring public safety by thinking that we will "always see them coming" is an argument based upon a fallacy.

We’ll never see all of them coming. Both of us know that’s a pipe dream. The public might want “assured safety”, but it’s impossible.



gf
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:47
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
Can you imagine the shrieking wails from the right if national intelligence and law enforcement were to start scrutinizing gun owners for signs of mental instability?
Me Sir! Please Sir! I know that one!

Anyone who wants a gun is de facto mentally unstable and shouldn't be allowed to have a gun. Simples - there are some real life lessons to learn from Catch 22, you know.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:54
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Try applying your cockamamie idea, GtW. Do you plan on declaring 40% of the population nuts? On what basis? I suspect you’re just projecting.

GF
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