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BA f/o just made a rookie mistake

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BA f/o just made a rookie mistake

Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:10
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BA f/o just made a rookie mistake

Just flew on a BA B767. Empty flight, max 60 people. Had to go around due to pilot 'unable to slow down the aircraft' (words of the crew over tannoy). I had my suspicions that the final stage of flaps wasn't engaging proprerly. Anayway, pilot decides to pull back before increasing the power. I honestly thought that was it. We were going to stall and fall out of the sky. Even on the second attempt it didn't seem like the flaps were all the way down, despite them trying. It was a very sketchy landing. Poor showing from BA
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Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:22
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Originally Posted by CAP A330 View Post
Just flew on a BA B767. Empty flight, max 60 people. Had to go around due to pilot 'unable to slow down the aircraft' (words of the crew over tannoy). I had my suspicions that the final stage of flaps wasn't engaging proprerly. Anayway, pilot decides to pull back before increasing the power. I honestly thought that was it. We were going to stall and fall out of the sky. Even on the second attempt it didn't seem like the flaps were all the way down, despite them trying. It was a very sketchy landing. Poor showing from BA
Into LHR by any chance? If so in your experience how easy do you find it complying with the 160 to 4 requirement but then being fully stable at 1000 feet AAL, especially on a light (nearly empty) aircraft? What do you think?

Interested to know who the crew were who used the “tannoy” flight crew or cabin crew? And also fascinated as to how exactly you judged the flap position from the passenger cabin...were you by any chance looking at the Whitcomb body indexers..they can be misaligned and be quite misleading"......(edited belatedly to add a for careful readers)

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Dec 2017 at 08:04.
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Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:29
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How do flaps “not engage properly”.
And an un-stabilized approach is exactky that. And if company procedures mandate you go-around if your not stabilized by a certain altitude the prundent thing to do is...guess again...go around.
I don’t see why you need to be hacking a professional crew over this.
I’m surprised you didnt ask the lead FA for a quick chat with the flight crew to inform them of the errors of their ways.
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Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:42
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Great that you had such insights CAP, you should have given the crew a firm talking to and perhaps some helpful tips on how to land and 'engage' the 767 flap system and never to stall. Given that you previously posted about remote controlled aircraft (model aircraft in my day) as quoted below you clearly have the knowledge.

Originally Posted by CAP A330 View Post
Thanks for the suggestions. But I was thinking something more 'technical'. As an example, I have tested a new wing design on an rc plane that greatly reduces the take off speed and distance needed. I have yet to run the numbers or work out the practically of the wing, but it would be titled something along the lines of 'Redesign of Bush aircraft wing for STOL'.
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Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:50
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(Edited)

In the interests of being slightly gentler on the OP please allow me a go-around from my first response, here's a second attempt .....

At BA if you are not stabilised at 1000 feet AAL then it is a mandatory go-around except in fairly exceptional circumstances. If you don’t it’s a tea and biscuits interview without the tea and biscuits...at some airports with speed requirements until close in, e.g LHRs “160 to 4” or the general American “160 as long as you can Bud” that can lead to some agressive speed reduction late in on the approach and late landing flap selection in order to get it all hanging and spooled up by the gate...if it was LHR then FWIW even with over 30,000 hours plus on the flight deck we had fun and games a few days ago on a lightweight triple trying to be both diligent on the 160 to 4 and then hitting the 1000 foot gate when there was a slight tailwind.

If the OP was a passenger I’d advise them to cut the crew some slack, and would hope that when he left the aircraft he thanked them for keeping him (or her) safe....

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Dec 2017 at 08:43. Reason: Attempting to inject some humour....
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Old 6th Dec 2017, 23:51
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Not to mention your post from the 8th Oct 2016

I feel like when I start working in a few years' time,
Which leads me to believe you’re an early teenager at most with an interest in aviation but no insight.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 04:38
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B2N2, but he's an A330 CAPtain.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 04:43
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Or he’s a wind up and found some takers.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 04:55
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Airspeed, Flap and AOA indicators tend at seat 32A to be deferred maintenance items much of the time.


Did you have the crew check the logbook or make an entry for the inoperative items?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 05:53
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So the guy is a youngster full of pep and vinegar. Surely that's just the sort of enthusiast you want on this forum in order to keep new blood flowing. Does it matter that the operational ability of a flight crew is brought up by a poster on these pages? Does it matter that the rookie mistake could have been questioned in a more subtly diplomatic manner.
Platinum bars have been put out I suppose, a great sin but not nearly as great a one as would be the case were the op a real A 330 Captain. So, on the basis of logical research and deduction, let the kid have his neck, point out the error of his ways to him but don’t toast the poor commentator, he might be the aviation correspondent for the Guardian.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 06:03
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cavorting, would you honestly expect the aviation correspondent for Guardian to know as much about aviation that the OP has demonstrated?

(The kid probably is an A330 Captain... on his playstation in his bedroom!)
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 06:13
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Does it matter that the operational ability of a flight crew is brought up by a poster on these pages
It’s not the question, it’s the attitude..If the poster started by entitling thread “BA go around”, had asked “ had a go around on a 767 today, apparently something to do us being fast...can anyone shed some light on it”? I’m sure the response would have been different...

But he didn’t. On the basis of obviously zero insight and pretty much zero knowledge he went in both feet first with the headline that one of the crew had f***ked up...I’d suggest he’s not blazing a trail for the young and energetic, he’s simply being ignorant and deserves a lot of the responses he got.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 06:27
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Well, as I said, the matter could have been raised in a more subtle manner but I then I remembered that this was Jet Blast, not perhaps the most appropriate page for a BA take down anyway and so became more benign in attitude.
Either way, the kid is getting good value out of his post.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 08:05
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According to the information you have shared, the aircraft was light, apparently there was an un-stabilized approach, they went around and planted it on the second try. Twas a good outcome with no drama, except in the retelling, perhaps.

Anayway, pilot decides to pull back before increasing the power. I honestly thought that was it.
Procedure and engine lag will have the aircraft pitching up well before the engines have responded to throttle commands and since the aircraft was light, power need not have been maximum thrust.

Sorted?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 09:58
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..we had fun and games a few days ago on a lightweight triple trying to be both diligent on the 160 to 4 and then hitting the 1000 foot gate when there was a slight tailwind.

Is it time to adopt the "when the rules make life too difficult, change the rules." philosophy? i.e. allow 500-1000' gate on clear VMC days, like many others. I managed that in B767 days, but are B777 & B747's etc more difficult?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 10:05
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Originally Posted by CAP A330 View Post
Just flew on a BA B767. Empty flight, max 60 people. Had to go around due to pilot 'unable to slow down the aircraft' (words of the crew over tannoy). I had my suspicions that the final stage of flaps wasn't engaging proprerly. Anayway, pilot decides to pull back before increasing the power. I honestly thought that was it. We were going to stall and fall out of the sky. Even on the second attempt it didn't seem like the flaps were all the way down, despite them trying. It was a very sketchy landing. Poor showing from BA
Are you a reporter for the Daily Fail by any chance?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 10:12
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I'd be interested to know how you know that it was the FO who was flying.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 10:14
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Is it time to adopt the "when the rules make life too difficult, change the rules." philosophy? i.e. allow 500-1000' gate on clear VMC days,
We moved away from the soft gate at 1000/hard gate at 500 rule a while back, though there's still some wriggle room....usual caveat that I don't write the rules etc ...

but are B777 & B747's etc more difficult?
Not sure about the 747 under the current LHR regime (Time based separation), IMHO the 777-200 is OK, even at light weights, but you do have to be ready and willing with the speedbrake at 4 DME and not buy into the old school "stick of shame" carp...you need it, possibly all of it, if there's not a lot of headwind/a knot or two of tailwind...... I guess that might feel "odd" to some down the back, but it's nothing to write home about.......
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 10:59
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CAP A330
You posted in the wrong forum here, you won't be taken seriously on JB.

I suggest you go the Rumours and News forum, so that your experience on that flight can inform the operational pilots who congregate there.

I am sure they will be very grateful for your valuable advice, so they can avoid such a dangerous situation happening again.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 12:53
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but he hasn’t come back has he?
Some youngster having a windup methinks.
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