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when technology doesn't do what you want

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when technology doesn't do what you want

Old 3rd Sep 2017, 15:05
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Nobody thought to solve this by including an "off" switch in the not-a-key?
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 15:11
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Is there not a fuse/CB you can pull to disable the system?
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 15:23
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Nobody thought to solve this by including an "off" switch in the not-a-key?
You can fairly easily take the lithium coin cell out of the fob to disable the remote and keyless entry system. The fob has an emergency key that can be slid out from inside it and used to open the driver's door. The backup passive RFID transponder can still be used to start the car without a battery in the fob, by folding the fob over the power button, I believe (I've not tested it, but did once have to use the emergency procedure when I let the fob battery go flat).

TBH, there's no real need to turn the fob off, as the amplifier theft trick only works over a limited range, and is very easily blocked. I doubt that it would work with the fobs inside our new house, as for some reason that seems to be an effective Faraday cage, that blocks RF very well (it's a nuisance, as wifi doesn't get out of the house and portable radio reception is poor inside the house - I've had to fit an external aerial to get FM radio).
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 16:37
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
You can fairly easily take the lithium coin cell out of the fob to disable the remote and keyless entry system. The fob has an emergency key that can be slid out from inside it and used to open the driver's door. The backup passive RFID transponder can still be used to start the car without a battery in the fob, by folding the fob over the power button, I believe (I've not tested it, but did once have to use the emergency procedure when I let the fob battery go flat).

TBH, there's no real need to turn the fob off, as the amplifier theft trick only works over a limited range, and is very easily blocked. I doubt that it would work with the fobs inside our new house, as for some reason that seems to be an effective Faraday cage, that blocks RF very well (it's a nuisance, as wifi doesn't get out of the house and portable radio reception is poor inside the house - I've had to fit an external aerial to get FM radio).
New houses often have foil backing on the cavity wall insulation, and heat reflecting double glazing which has a very thin layer of metal sprayed on the inside, put them together and yup close to a Faraday cage!
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 16:40
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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It' still two different systems.

I program and troubleshoot them as a toyota and lexus master technician.
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 17:20
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IcePaq View Post
It' still two different systems.

I program and troubleshoot them as a toyota and lexus master technician.
Yes, but with a common point of vulnerability, the fob that operates both!

The amplifier/transponder trick makes the car (including Toyota models) believe that the fob is in proximity to the car, even though it may well be inside the adjacent house. Both the keyless entry and the immobiliser systems behave as if the fob is present near/in the car and consequently the car unlocks and starts.

The article I linked to above shows that 24 cars from 19 different manufacturers could have both the keyless entry and immobiliser systems bypassed in this way. Toyota sent out letters to owners about it when it was first publicised, here, around a year or so ago, with advice to owners to always keep the fob stored as far away from the car as possible.

On a secondary point, at our old house the key hooks were by the back door, close to where my other half parks her keyless entry Toyota. She had a problem with the battery going flat in the spare fob after a month or so. That was traced by the dealer to having the spare fob so close to the car that it kept being activated by the field from the car, so causing the fob transmitter to turn on repeatedly and discharge it's battery. The fix was just to store the fob further away from the parked car.
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 17:32
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
On a secondary point, at our old house the key hooks were by the back door, close to where my other half parks her keyless entry Toyota. She had a problem with the battery going flat in the spare fob after a month or so. That was traced by the dealer to having the spare fob so close to the car that it kept being activated by the field from the car, so causing the fob transmitter to turn on repeatedly and discharge it's battery. The fix was just to store the fob further away from the parked car.
I worked for an access control company once. One day the front door kept unlocking itself continually. Eventually this was traced to a tag which a former employee hadn't had taken off them on their last day (fail!) and which hadn't been disabled in the system (fail!) and which they'd posted back to the company. The post was being stored within range of the reader for the front door.
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 17:35
  #48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
Why can't the keyless entry system be provided as a finger ring, wristband, or bespoke company watch? Hate to see what happens in a place of high RF interference
They have.

David Luiz buys supercar keys worth 1million for Chelsea team-mates, Antonio Conte and Roman Abramovich
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 20:17
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Doesn't a Faraday Cage have to be earthed (grounded)?

Recollect building a valve radio receiver which didn't work - until I took it out of the steel-framed workshop
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 01:53
  #50 (permalink)  
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Using this method saves a lot of time. A bit of Serviceol on the spindles, and she'll be right mate.



https://www.facebook.com/TechnoGerma...3661472291890/
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 20:01
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MNRAF View Post
Doesn't a Faraday Cage have to be earthed (grounded)?

Recollect building a valve radio receiver which didn't work - until I took it out of the steel-framed workshop
As long as a Faraday cage fully encloses a device it does matter if it is grounded (earthed on other side of pond) or not.

Very rough analogy between acoustic and RF waves:

Think of putting a small radio in a paint can, as soon as the lid is pressed shut all you would hear is nothing, inside the can you would hear static.


If the "cage" is not complete then grounding will make a difference.

The earth/grounded part reminded of a very old story about (I believe) Grundig radios that used an outdoor style water faucet as a symbol for the ground connection.

The owner's ham radio friend that came over to investigate bad reception found a flower pot with a faucet on a pipe in it being used for the ground.

Likely a true story, too hard to make stuff like that up...
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 20:59
  #52 (permalink)  
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not being a pipe smoker I didn't have a tobacco tin handy but I did have a nice roll of lead sheet. A few minutes work with tin snips and a vice and I had a nice lead box with a good fitting lid. Worked a treat.

Andrew.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 01:17
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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not being a pipe smoker I didn't have a tobacco tin handy but I did have a nice roll of lead sheet. A few minutes work with tin snips and a vice and I had a nice lead box with a good fitting lid. Worked a treat.

Andrew.

Good to hear of an old fashioned solution to a modern problem.



What I cannot believe is that there were 3 pages on this thread and no-one brought up 'an Airbus' as an example to "when technology doesn't do what you want". Standards are clearly slipping!
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 01:41
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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At least no one has brought up the Nazis or Trump...oops!
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 08:36
  #55 (permalink)  
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A Vulcan air crew manual had less pages and we flew far more hours in it.
True, but the owners manual used by we ground staff came in several volumes, running to a couple of thousand pages.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 10:02
  #56 (permalink)  
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BS, is that why they were often u/s at crew in?

LOL
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 11:13
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blacksheep View Post
True, but the owners manual used by we ground staff came in several volumes, running to a couple of thousand pages.
When I was at Istres/Orange 1957-8, we had an enormous Tech Library, with the Air Pub's for every type of a/c that was expected to pass through.
As a consequence, we had a Clerk Tech, who was full time employed doing the updates to said manuals.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 13:27
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ian16th View Post
When I was at Istres/Orange 1957-8, we had an enormous Tech Library, with the Air Pub's for every type of a/c that was expected to pass through.
As a consequence, we had a Clerk Tech, who was full time employed doing the updates to said manuals.
For whom I feel very sorry.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 12:41
  #59 (permalink)  
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BS, is that why they were often u/s at crew in?
A Vulcan was never serviceable for that was an impossibility, and the reason why we had one of each trade on starter crew. I think there must have been an enemy of the state in the Avro E&I design office - I mean who could have decided to put the "FireTech" boxes in the nose wheel well and, given the need to constantly monitor fuel contents to maintain the CoG, put the Smiths Mk4 Fuel Quantity Amplifiers next to them? Then there were the jokingly named FFFD (Fault Free Fire Detectors). All 26 of them! Jeeze, the Vulcan was a dreadful beast to keep in a flyable condition.

But we had lots of fun as well...
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 14:46
  #60 (permalink)  
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B$, and someone had shares in Zeus Fasteners as they seemed to use twice as many as necessary. If the snatch connector covers could work with a sprung hinge!
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