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Aldi defend its decision not to sell booze at this till

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Aldi defend its decision not to sell booze at this till

Old 29th Aug 2017, 05:58
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
No there isn't, so there is no discrimination.
That is where you are so wrong. The employee decided he was going to impose his own beliefs on customers because they wanted to buy products the supermarket sold and that other checkout staff would have no problem with. He was in effect denying customers free choice. That is discrimination.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 06:26
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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The employee did no such thing. The employer is the one you need to talk to if you have a problem with it. You aren't being prevented from buying alcohol so there is no denying the customer free choice.

Or would you claim that an alcohol free shop is denying you free choice?

You're all so desperate to claim "the nasty Muslim discriminated against me coz I had to use a different checkout" - it'd be funny if it wasn't so sad and pathetic.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 06:44
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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I would dispute the "no discrimination" argument. Say you are waiting to check out, and there are long queues at the tills. You get half way along the queue, then spot the "no alcohol" sign on the end (that will have been hidden by those ahead of you in the queue). You then have to leave the queue and join the back of another one, adding more delay to your shopping trip. That is discrimination, plain and simple.

Or, take another example. You are queueing at the tills, and haven't bought alcoholic drink. Your shopping is scanned and the till operator refuses to pick up the bottle of shampoo, or can of deodorant, or any one of a dozen or more other items you may have bought, on the grounds that they contain alcohol, a substance that is not forbidden to handle, or even use externally, by any religion I'm aware of, but which this one person has extremist views about. That is also discrimination, as you would be forced to repack everything back into a trolley. wait whilst the transactions were backed out, then go back and queue at another checkout.

This is going to force everyone in that store to read every label on every product to be sure that they are not buying something that contains alcohol. I've just done a quick look around our house, and identified that shampoo has it in, as does aerosol deodorant, foot spray, mouth ulcer treatment, mouth wash, kitchen cleaners and car de-icing spray. I dare say there are many other products in the house that contain alcohol, too, ignoring beverages.

It might be interesting to walk around that store and find out just how many products that till operator had decided not to handle, on the basis that they contain alcohol. I would happily bet that many of them may well be found in his/her own home...............
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 06:50
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Boo f******g hoo, shop somewhere else snowflakes
(Grammar corrected from the original "Boo f******g hoo ,shop somewheres else snowflake's")

Fully agreed. I don't shop at Aldi and with this sort of publicity, I most certainly won't.

How on earth could they employ someone who couldn't of wouldn't do the job properly? The moment the employee says "I don't want to ... " due to their own prejudices they should be shown the door. Was there a reduction in pay for handling a restricted range of goods compared with what all the cashiers at the other tills were handling?
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 07:03
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Yup, you're way past desperate VP959. Drinking shampoo? Really?!? Toughen up princess is all I can say if you think that's discrimination.

Trossie, plenty of employers employ people who have special requirements or needs. It's up to the employer if they accommodate a "I'd rather not".
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 07:13
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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special requirements or needs
Ah, is not wanting to serve alcohol akin to a 'disability' then?

le Pingouin, which shop do you work in? Just so that I can exercise my free choice and avoid spending my money there.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 07:18
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
Yup, you're way past desperate VP959. Drinking shampoo? Really?!? Toughen up princess is all I can say if you think that's discrimination.

Trossie, plenty of employers employ people who have special requirements or needs. It's up to the employer if they accommodate a "I'd rather not".
The prohibition has nothing at all to do with drinking, go read the sign posted at the start of this thread. To save you the trouble, here is the text of that sign on display at the checkout:

"NO ALCOHOL IS ABLE TO BE SERVED ON THIS TILL. SORRY FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE"

Note that the sign makes no reference to drinks, products containing alcohol that are for external use, etc, it is a blanket ban on alcohol, with no caveats.

The wording is not ambiguous; a spray can of deodorant could not be sold at that till, according to the wording of the sign, along with dozens of other products.

However, that is not the point. The point here is that is someone has an extreme religious belief that forces them to not handle even a sealed container that has alcohol in some percentage within it, then that severely restricts them from handling a wide range of everyday products. The end use of that product is not for the person selling it to make a judgement on - I well remember someone who used to use vodka as a skin cleansing agent, for example, and I don't think she ever drank the stuff, as far as I can recall.

There is no prohibition in the Qur'an on handling alcohol at all, and there never has been. The stricture is on intoxication, not handling materials that could, if ingested, cause intoxication. There are additional strictures on handling food stuff that is considered to be unclean, but that is shared with other Abrahamic religions, too.

Finally, what about Methodists or the Salvation Army? They have a creed that forbids intoxication with alcohol - do they refuse to sell it when working at supermarket tills?
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 07:58
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Trossie, I don't work in a shop. Personally I'd rather not provide you with a service either but I don't get to make that choice.

VP959, how about reading the sign in colloquial English before disappearing down the rabbit hole of bloody minded literalism that's almost certainly incorrect. You really are so desperate to make a mountain out of this molehill.

We have no idea what was said between employee and manager - for instance "I'd rather not handle alcohol" rather than a flat refusal. You're making an awfully large assumption it was anything else and building your mountain on assumptions.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:09
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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We have no idea ...
le Pingouin, You seem to be hell-bent on defending a situation that you 'have no idea' about. You're making an awfully large assumption ... and building your mountain on assumptions!!
Personally I'd rather not provide you with a service either ...
Based on what assumptions? Or is it just a prejudice based on a few words here?

I don't shop at Aldi and this has just ensured that that will continue to be the case.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:10
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
Trossie, I don't work in a shop. Personally I'd rather not provide you with a service either but I don't get to make that choice.

VP959, how about reading the sign in colloquial English before disappearing down the rabbit hole of bloody minded literalism that's almost certainly incorrect. You really are so desperate to make a mountain out of this molehill.

We have no idea what was said between employee and manager - for instance "I'd rather not handle alcohol" rather than a flat refusal. You're making an awfully large assumption it was anything else and building your mountain on assumptions.
The sign has no indication whatsoever that it is "colloquial English". It is very clearly and unambiguously worded. Had the manager wished to only limit the sale of alcoholic beverages, then that is what should have been on the sign.

The implication of that sign is very clear and unambiguous. The till operator has expressed a wish not to handle any container that holds alcohol. All I've done is point out the blindingly obvious. If someone does not wish to handle a bottle or can that contains what is, to them, an abhorrent substance, then they cannot handle bottles of shampoo or aerosol cans of deodorant that hold the same abhorrent substance.

What's the difference between handling a sealed can of aerosol deodorant, or bottle of after shave, that contains a percentage of ethanol, to handling a sealed can of beer or bottle of wine that also contains a similar, or smaller, percentage of ethanol?

If someone has an extreme religious objection to ethanol, then it matters not one jot what the stuff is mixed with.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:28
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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"Makes no difference" - so you claim. Based on what exactly?
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:30
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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The permanently outraged triggered again
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:39
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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... and the 'wind-up-able' wound up again!

Go on le Pingouin, do you shop in Aldi? I don't.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 08:44
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
"Makes no difference" - so you claim. Based on what exactly?
Not the words I used, if this was aimed at me.

My point is that if someone has a religious objection to handling a particular substance, even when packaged, then it matters not what that substance is incorporated into - the objection for them is to handling the substance; they have no way of knowing how it may be used.

The alternative is that the person is trying to impose their belief upon others, over the use of that substance for a specific subset of purposes, and that is, in my view, wrong, and quite possibly discriminatory and unlawful as well.

It's common knowledge that those addicted to alcohol will seek out ways to imbibe the stuff by unconventional means. Drinking aftershave, or other non-beverage products, as a way to become intoxicated is pretty well documented, for example.

So if this person on this till is on what amounts to a crusade to prevent intoxication from alcohol, then their wish, supported by their management, needs to be complied with properly, and indeed that sign clearly states that no alcohol should be sold by them; the form that alcohol takes is not mentioned - it is a blanket ban on the sale of the substance.

If the person on the till is Muslim, then I suggest that they should go and talk to their Imam, and learn what the Qur'an actually says about intoxication, and the meaning behind the prohibition on imbibing intoxicants. It's pretty clear, even for a non-believer like me to understand, and it most definitely does not preclude the handling, or use, of alcohol as a substance.

Finally, what about our other religions that preach temperance? As mentioned before, the Salvation Army put a great deal of effort into dissuading people from consuming alcohol, and do not allow any of their followers to do so. However, in the decades that they have been active in our society I have not once heard of a case where a Salvation Army follower has taken action like this till operator. Why is that?
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 09:14
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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VP959: Seldom do I disagree with your, normally well balanced views, but not on this one.
Take the English point. "No alcohol is able to be served on this till". What sort of English is that?
Should you find yourself in the hypothetical long queue situation, when the shop assistant refuses to serve you, you would surely stand your ground and demand a manager attend. I can pretty much guarantee the manager would complete the transaction for you. If that didn't work, you leave the entire cart full of shopping, pay for nothing and go elsewhere.
As for discrimination; I believe your eample might be showing discrimination against the product, not you. If the sign said "people under 1.75m tall (or with brown hair etc), will not be served, then that would constitute discrimination against the person.
As for after shave and shampoo, in the 1970s one frequently encountered the duty loonie in Customs at Jeddah, tipping out part of the after shave bottle and sniffing suspiciously. Their attitude seemed to mellow over the years.
Finally, as I said earlier, a licenced retailer of alcoholic beverages may serve or refuse to serve anybody. And no reason needs to be given. If they say "No", then "No" it is and you can not argue.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 09:52
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Let's just get back to the point:
This is an example of a foreigner in attitude and religion coming to our country and attempting to subvert our culture with his own extremist belief. The Quran advises against drinking alcohol but scholars still argue over the detail.

Whilst I'd advise a customer to stand their ground until ordered out by a police officer, it isn't that easy for a Muslim so maltreated. The publicity could reflect upon their family and attract the attention of the pieces of swine excrement who bully those who do not follow their own Wahabist fascism.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 10:10
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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I agree that the notice is poorly worded, and suspect that the intention was to state that the till in question could not sell alcoholic beverages, something that is quite lawful, if the rationale is there (till staff under 18, for example).

However, the way it is worded implies that no alcohol can be sold at that till, and taking that to a logical inclusion includes a lot of non-beverage products that contain alcohol, often in concentrations that are higher than in some alcoholic beverages.

We don't know the true reason for the person on that till not being able, or willing, to handle containers of alcohol, either, only what has been reported, and some of that may well be speculation. What we do know is that there is not a religious prohibition on handling sealed containers of alcohol, by any of the several religions, or sects of religions, that prohibit the ingestion of alcohol.

The point here is really questioning the right of an individual to influence the sales policy of a major store, based on a misinterpretation of a religious prohibition (if this is what this actually is about).
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 11:08
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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are you really that pathetically desperate
The ball sir, the ball!

Is there any characteristic about you other than the bottle in your hand that would cause the employee to not to want to serve you? No there isn't, so there is no discrimination.
discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n
noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people........
If the bottle in your hand causes you to be treated differently, ie have to move to a different queue, then you are being discriminated against.
Two people standing in front of the cashier. One has a bottle of alcohol in his hand (category one), the other a carton of milk (category two). The cashier refuses to serve the customer wanting to purchase the alcohol, but gladly serves the customer with the milk, not because of any store policy or law, but because he wishes to based on his own personal belief. I don't care whether it is religious based or sheer bloody mindedness. It's wrong.
The cake shop case says he cannot refuse to serve based on a belief. Just because there is another checkout adjacent that will serve the customer is irrelevant. There may well have been another cake shop next door that would have fulfilled the order. It didn't matter.

Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 29th Aug 2017 at 11:25.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 11:19
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I agree that the notice is poorly worded, and suspect that the intention was to state that the till in question could not sell alcoholic beverages, something that is quite lawful, if the rationale is there (till staff under 18, for example).
There is quite a lot of misunderstanding about this so I will clear this up once and for all.

UK Law dictates that anybody working at a point of sale service under the age of 18 years cannot legally sell alcohol unless authorised by an employee who is older than 18 years.

So the fact that this cashier is not allowed to sell alcohol because of his age is a load of dog. If he is 17 years old, another cashier (or colleague on the shopfloor) would be allowed to authorise the sale with a quick thumbs up or "yes that's allowed".

This law is to a) protect the minor from selling alcohol to underage shoppers and b) protect the company from the minor selling alcohol to his/her underage friends.

Simple. Now stop playing the age card on this subject because it is clear that this Muslim didn't want to sell alcohol to Joe Public.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 11:20
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Would the till operator have the same reaction to a customer who presented a ham sandwich, pork chop, pack of bacon or any one of a number of things that contain pork.
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