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Aldi defend its decision not to sell booze at this till

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Aldi defend its decision not to sell booze at this till

Old 28th Aug 2017, 13:03
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
tdracer, you're the one banging on about Muslims in Indonesia being happy to handle alcohol, implying all Muslims are happy to do so. After all, all Christians are the same.....

Last time I checked it wasn't illegal for an employer to accommodate individual employee requests to vary duties if they wish.
You continue to pretty much miss the point (or more accurately, the points - plural).
In Indonesia, there are a huge variety of Muslim beliefs and adherence to said beliefs. Everything from strict (and extreme) adherence to Sharia, to what I refer to as 'Muslim in name only' (they drink, smoke, eat pork, etc. but still identify as Muslim). Within that Muslim community, the local business people seem to have little problem accommodating these various religious beliefs while providing the expected services to the general public.
Unless I'm missing something, the question is not varying employee duties to suit the employee needs, it's allowing the employee to unilaterally change their duties to suit themselves - the consumer needs be damned.
To put it a little differently, when certain Christians declined to provide services to a gay wedding - something their religious beliefs made objectionable - they were condemned and basically put out of business. But if a Muslim declines to sell alcohol we bend over backward to accommodate.
That just ain't right...
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 13:40
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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From the article at the very beginning of this thread:

"Aldi has defended closing a till to customers wanting to buy alcohol because a staff member had 'concerns' about serving booze.

The discount store's Northampton branch fixed a sign warning customers no alcohol would be served at one of the checkouts."


Clearly indicates Aldi was responsible for the sign and voluntarily chose to vary duties - there was no unilateral action. Consumer needs are being met at other tills.


Not a valid comparison. The wedding service bigot was entirely happy to provide an identical service to the couple next in line. It wasn't a "sorry, I don't do prawn cocktails, choose something different". It was "I'm not serving you because you're homosexual". If anyone is pulling a political stunt it's this person.


If the sign had said "we don't serve short people" or "we don't serve Christians" at this till you'd have a valid comparison.



One is non-discriminatory and the other is utterly discriminatory.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 13:57
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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One is non-discriminatory and the other is utterly discriminatory.
OK, it's now clear to me.
Christian declines to provide a service because it's contrary to their religious beliefs, but provide consumer with other options that will accommodate their requested service (at least in the case I'm referring to, the bakery in question provided the name of another bakery that would supply the desired wedding cake):
Discriminatory

Muslim declines to provide a service because it's contrary to their religious beliefs, but provide consumer with options that will accommodate their requested service:
Non-discriminatory
Thanks for clearing that up for me...
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 14:05
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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The employee's "concerns" obviously do not extend to working for an alcohol retailer or accepting pay from such a dubious company, though!
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 14:23
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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tdracer, you don't get it at all.

Refusing to provide a particular product to everyone is by definition not discriminatory. Everyone attempting to buy wine is treated the same.

Would you be so outraged if an entire shop didn't stock alcohol for religious reasons?

Refusing to provide a product to a particular group of people based on a characteristic *is* by definition discriminatory. People attempting to buy a wedding cake are treated differently depending on whether they're gay or not.

It's nothing to do with what religion it is.

How would you feel if you were refused service for being a Christian or a particular denomination? Or because you're from a particular country or speak a particular way? That's the door you're opening. "We don't serve your type."

Your religious beliefs are no more important than my personal beliefs so no offence when I refuse your aircraft a clearance. It's just my beliefs.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 14:43
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Boo f******g hoo ,shop somewheres else snowflake's
In a free country you are free to spend you money in places that you want to support.
In a free country you get to Vote with your money with every transaction.
If you do not support a shops politics with your money . Stores that fail to get that basic concept close quicker than you can say " Target ,Sears ,or K Mart"
I do not spend in stores that are promoters of slavery and slave labour.
It will take you two minutes on Google to find out which stores and products support and you can Vote with your money if you want to support Freedom or support others being oppressed.

My money
My choice
My freedom
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 14:49
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Refusing to provide a particular product to everyone is by definition not discriminatory. Everyone attempting to buy wine is treated the same.
OK, but do you really suggest someone who is unwilling to sell wine is entitled to a job that involves selling wine? Or as I somewhat sarcastically noted earlier someone who objects to alcohol being a bartender?
I personally don't have anything against gay people or gay marriage, but I can certainly understand how some people might find it objectionable for religious reasons.
Bottom line, objecting to alcohol for religious reasons is no different - we are forcing individuals to perform acts that they personally find objectionable. Gay marriage is legal (at least where we live - those other places are subject for another thread), alcohol is legal. Where do you draw the line? We have a big debate on this side of the pond regarding forcing people who think abortion is murder to provide that service - something their religious beliefs say will damn them to hell. Either we accept that people have certain rights related to religious reasons, or we don't. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 15:18
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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We have a big debate on this side of the pond regarding forcing people who think abortion is murder to provide that service
They can always get a different job.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 15:26
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
OK, but do you really suggest someone who is unwilling to sell wine is entitled to a job that involves selling wine?
Nobody is "entitled" to any job - that's a matter for the employer. If you don't like their employment practices you don't have to buy shares in them and you don't have to buy stuff in their shops and you don't have to go and work for them.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 15:35
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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One of the largest supermarket chains here forbit their trainees and apprentices from selling alcohol if they are under 18. They won't sell beer or wine to 16/17 year olds although it is legal to do so. The largest chain doesn't sell any alcohol or tobacco. You can't buy alcohol at a service station on the motorway, even though all customers are not drivers.

So?
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 16:37
  #111 (permalink)  
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Boo f******g hoo ,shop somewheres else snowflake's
I buy quite a bit of wine from ALDI. I have it delivered. Many of the delivery men look very often to me like Muslims. I don't give a toss if they are or not, or if they've had trouble finding one that will come out with it, not my problem.

Ex - it is illegal here for anyone under 18 to serve or sell alcohol. I wonder how many supermarkets observe this.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 17:28
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by UniFoxOs View Post
Ex - it is illegal here for anyone under 18 to serve or sell alcohol. I wonder how many supermarkets observe this.
In the UK it is illegal for anyone under 18 to sell alcohol unsupervised in a supermarket, it appears. What happens is that the kid calls across to the adult at the next till who glances over and tells them to go ahead (I think they're basically checking that the kid isn't selling booze to a bunch of his/her underage mates).
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 18:43
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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I buy quite a bit of wine from ALDI.
I'm in the middle of my first bottle of wine from Aldi; a Chilean Merlot. I have bought and enjoyed stacks of Chilean Merlot from Lidl and it deserves the plaudits it has received.

This bottle is AWFUL.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 20:06
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin View Post
Refusing to provide a particular product to everyone is by definition not discriminatory. Everyone attempting to buy wine is treated the same.

[...]

Refusing to provide a product to a particular group of people based on a characteristic *is* by definition discriminatory. People attempting to buy a wedding cake are treated differently depending on whether they're gay or not.
So surely refusing to serve a particular group of people, those wanting alcohol, is also discriminatory?

The gay couple that wanted a wedding cake would have been served if they wanted any other cake, or bread, or any other baked product, it was the logo on the cake that the baker objected to. The same way as this member of checkout staff would have been happy to serve a customer with lemonade, or washing up liquid or any other Aldi product, it was just alcohol that the member of staff objected to.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 20:12
  #115 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
The gay couple that wanted a wedding cake would have been served if they wanted any other cake, or bread, or any other baked product, it was the logo on the cake that the baker objected to.
'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 20:20
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Any sensible couple would have gone to another bakers to get their choice of decoration.

But Gays; no. They have to go to court.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 20:52
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Like I said
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 01:22
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Refusing to provide a particular product to everyone is by definition not discriminatory. Everyone attempting to buy wine is treated the same.
No they are not. They are being refused service by an individual employee, based on his/her disapproval of their purchasing decision. If that cashier changes tills, the discrimination moves to that till. This is not a customer driven process, ie sweet free aisle, but pandering to the prejudice of one employee.
If a customer said, "ok, remove that cashier, and provide me with a non muslim one", do you think the store would be so quick to oblige? If they had put up a sign above the other checkouts that said " Non-Muslim Operator, alcohol ok", would that be ok?
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 02:48
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Either we accept that people have certain rights related to religious reasons, or we don't.
You dont have any rights. You can have preferences, choices, beliefs, but certainly not any rights. You can have a right to have a religious belief, but certainly not a right to act on it. Why should your particular belief make you any different to someone else? If your belief puts you at odds with greater society, then be prepared to suffer any consequences. We are far too prepared to offend the many to prevent the offence of the few.
In the case of the cake shop, I can sympathize with them, but in this case they have suffered the consequences of acting on their beliefs. I can't help wondering though, that if the image the customer had wanted on their cake had been something else that the owners thought inapproptiate as Christians, or even moral citizens ,ie a pornographic image, or the ISIS flag, rather than one connected to the gay rights situation, would the courts have looked at it the same way?

Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 29th Aug 2017 at 03:20.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 05:30
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Fareast, why should they have too? The management of the bakery was breaking the law.

Traffic, are you really that pathetically desperate? How is the employee showing prejudice? They aren't objecting to serving you, just to handling alcohol. If you handed the bottle to your mate and he took it to another register the employee would then serve you.

No-one is being prevented from buying alcohol at that Aldi store so there is no discrimination. Everyone is treated equally so there is no discrimination. Is there any characteristic about you other than the bottle in your hand that would cause the employee to not to want to serve you? No there isn't, so there is no discrimination.
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