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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

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USS John S. McCain vs Alnic MC

Old 29th Aug 2017, 15:01
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech View Post
I have no specific knowledge of the McCain's radar signature, but I was the production test supervisor of the hp 8510 Network Analyzer, which was used to quantify the stealthiness of different shapes and materials back in the early 80's. I know a lot about microwave technology.

Perhaps you are confusing the McCain with one of the new Zumwalt class destroyers.

"Despite being 40% larger than an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, the radar cross-section is more akin to that of a fishing boat, according to a spokesman for Naval Sea Systems Command. The tumblehome hull and composite deckhouse reduce radar return. Overall, the destroyer's angular build makes it "50 times harder to spot on radar than an ordinary destroyer."

So the extremely expensive, weird-looking Zumwalt has a "radar cross-section akin to that of a fishing boat", which I'm sure could be detected by nearby marine radar. The old, conventional steel McCain would have a much larger radar cross-section. How much more I can't say with certainty, but if it's twice as good as a conventional destroyer, that's still 25 fishing boats.

Regarding the Zumwalt class, I was glad to read "To improve detection in non-combat situations by other vessels, such as traversing busy shipping channels or operating in inclement weather, the Navy is testing adding onboard reflectors to improve the design's radar visibility."

Someone's thinking.
An Arleigh Burke has the same radar sig on India band as any other ship of that size.
Radar sig is not the issue here - I think differenciating radar signatures from ground clutter could be. A radar screen in a TSS at 10 miles range looks like somebody had coughed all over the screen.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 20:29
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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It's all just blibs and blobs
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 20:32
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Why do you assume that they are runinng with no lights at night? That wasn't common at all, peacetime steaming, when I was in the Navy. It was rare, and saved for exercises.
Hence the "What about if" and the question mark at the end But most warships I have come across tended to be more 'nav lights only' and not lit up anything near as much as a merch, and definitely nothing like a cruise ship.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 04:33
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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But most warships I have come across tended to be more 'nav lights only' and not lit up anything near as much as a merch, and definitely nothing like a cruise ship.
OK, but why would a military ship want to be lit up like that, or even able to do so? In any case, "Nav lights only" is a bit different than no lights whatsoever. Perhaps I'm missing something, it's been a long day, but just sayin'.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 13:47
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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I was just commenting on Lonewolf's post about warships and lights. I clarified that I didn't assume anything, just that warships sometimes run with no lights and when they do use lights they are very few and the ship still isn't easily seen with the MkI Eyeball.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 14:19
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone remember the story that I was told about an old County class destroyer back around 1980 given the task of attacking a US aircraft carrier in an exercise in the Med in the dark ?

Realising he had little chance of creeping up on the flattop and all it's escorts the captain decided to try a different tack. He got out all his best RN drinks party fairy lights and got every hatch opened with lights blazing everywhere so that she looked like a cruise ship. He then headed towards the carrier at low speed and when he was challenged on the radio got someone to put on their best Peter Sellars Indian doctor voice to hail the carrier that he was " SS Bombay Curry heading for Athens and so sorry to disturb the mighty US warship on his passage ". The carrier responded that he was to just carry on and not change course as he was on serious business. When he was well inside Exocet range he went through the launch drill and then came up on the radio in his best Naval manner to identify himself as the flattops quarry and he was claiming a missile kill.

Perhaps the USN just need to fit out their ships with a few crates of Fairy lights for busy waters ?
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 14:42
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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My cousin was involved in the moving of tankers up the Gulf during the Iran v Iraq war when US Navy and some RN ships were involved in trying to convoy them together. His comments at the the time on US Navy seamanship or lack thereof, and the cutting up of cargo ships I still recall as being some what pointed, to say the least. Maybe these incidents just high light a problem which has long existed and the holes in the chesse have only just lined up ?


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Last edited by Mr Mac; 7th Sep 2017 at 15:00.
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 23:48
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
Maybe these incidents just high light a problem which has long existed and the holes in the cheese have only just lined up ?
One such incident was mind-boggling. Two...! It sounds like a CRM-type issue. Two sets of crew in separate areas, the bridge and Combat Information Center, it's the former's job to prevent collisions, but the latter could also see it coming. A comment was made along the lines that "no one spoke up until seconds before the collision".

Here's interesting commentary from someone with destroyer experience on how the Fitzgerald collision might have happened. Possible Scenario for the USS Fitzgerald Collision

ANOTHER Arleigh Burke class destroyer, the USS Porter, collided with a tanker in 2012. Audio from the bridge is available, I didn't listen to it but here are excerpts:
Skipper: "Why don't we just go straight this way?"
"I have, uh ..." "Aye sir." (Poor bastard, outranked by a dumbfxxk)
"Sir, I would like to slow down."
"Sir, I have a port aspect on this guy, he's crossing us, we need to act quickly, sir."
The poor bastard suggests turning hard left, and the skipper agrees.

"Hard left rudder!" Skipper bellows, then orders five short horn blasts, signaling danger. Seconds later, he orders the engines to full speed in an effort to clear the tanker's path.

"All engines ahead flank!" Arriola shouts. "Let's go, get me up there, flank!"

Five more horn blasts. The captain again shouts, "Left full rudder!"
Bam. Fortunately, no casualties.

Last edited by PrivtPilotRadarTech; 31st Aug 2017 at 05:59. Reason: typo
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Old 31st Aug 2017, 10:00
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Photograph of USS Porter following the collision with Otowatasun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1..._collision.jpg
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 13:22
  #170 (permalink)  
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US Navy says most 7th Fleet warships lacked proper certification

US Navy says most 7th Fleet warships lacked proper certification | Fox News

May not have any relevance to what happened, but...

The majority of ships operating in the U.S. Navy’s Seventh Fleet, where two destroyers have been involved in fatal collisions since June, weren’t certified to conduct basic operations at sea related to war-fighting, according to U.S. Navy records.As of late June, eight of the 11 cruisers and destroyers in the Seventh Fleet, and their crew members, weren’t certified by the U.S. Navy to conduct “mobility seamanship,” or basic steering of the ship, according to U.S. Navy records provided to two House Armed Services subcommittees.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 15:02
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Funny how all these ships (3nr) appear to have been hit in exactly the same place according to the photos I have so far seen.


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Mr Mac
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 19:14
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, all just forward of the bridge. Funny that...
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 19:43
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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The USS Fitzgerald had expired training certification for 10 out of 10 key warfare mission areas in June, and the USS John S. McCain had let its certifications lapse in six out of the 10 mission areas, the data show.
So gross incompetence at all levels.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 06:26
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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This guy seems to know what he's talking about (and was in a position to know):
The Real Reason the US Navy Keeps Hitting Merchant Vessels - In Military

Money Quote:
There is no way on my ships that would have happened. We always had direct leadership. Leadership that was there, present and capable. I am willing to bet that those ships involved in incidents with merchants had all their sexual orientation, transgender training, and environmental training all completed at the expense of the safety and operational training.
If you put the emphasis on social issues, you get a social force. If you put it on operational issues, you get an operational force.
The mistakes I see in the latest incidents – I have read the actual reports on the Fitzgerald – were so simple and basic it takes your breath away. Technology can never replace humans in totality, especially when the law of gross tonnage applies.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 14:52
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Western hero

Not heard that one, have heard the one about a CVN and a lighthouse, same author I imagine.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 18:27
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
This guy seems to know what he's talking about (and was in a position to know)
These accidents were along the lines of someone making unsafe lane changes on the freeway. The merchant vessels are like big rigs, and these destroyers are cutting in front of them like some old lady who's oblivious to traffic.

"The mistakes I see in the latest incidents Ė I have read the actual reports on the Fitzgerald Ė were so simple and basic it takes your breath away."

He sounds like he knows what he's talking about there, but suggesting that "sexual orientation, transgender training, and environmental training" had anything to do with it- that's very bad. There they were, in high traffic environments. What great training opportunities, all that was needed was some leadership. That's what was lacking, he even says so: "Fourth, the ship climate and command structures were obviously out of whack. COs donít get to sleep in in heavy shipping waters, [thatís] just a fact."
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 05:46
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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but suggesting that "sexual orientation, transgender training, and environmental training" had anything to do with it- that's very bad.
I read that to mean that training in these "social" issues may have been given priority over operational training. As in to the exclusion of. If true, then THAT's very bad...
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:34
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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You can bet your bottom dollar that the essential training was done....as that has priority.

Sadly....Political Correctness has trumped Seamanship in the scheme of things!


http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-np...6/NAV16166.txt

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-n...nds-in-charge/
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:56
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Are not US Navy bridge personnel educated and trained navigators? How can a couple of days training in "social issues" diminish this competence?
Strange.
Per
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 14:12
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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The implication is that 'social issues' training is not supplementing the required operational training, it's taking the place of. Not far fetched, training budgets tend to be fixed so if you add training for one thing it's apt to replace training for something else.


No first hand knowledge of the US Navy, but I know this was true at my work. We were permitted a given number of hours per year for training - and that number didn't increase when diversity and other social issues training was mandated. So I know for a fact that sitting through a day of diversity training meant that there was one less day available to me for training that might actually make me a better engineer.
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