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Old 2nd Aug 2017, 23:31   #41 (permalink)
 
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Racedo. you are wrong on the substantive issue. Ireland is far from left alone by the unelected EU cohort in Brussels.
Years of cap in hand taking of handouts (that were wasted in agricultural payouts for domestic political expediency) rather than spent on infrastructure like in other
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY countries.
Now Ireland is the most compliant and spineless when it comes to resisting the horshi*t that Brussels is about
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 18:46   #42 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by 45989 View Post
Racedo. you are wrong on the substantive issue. Ireland is far from left alone by the unelected EU cohort in Brussels.
Years of cap in hand taking of handouts (that were wasted in agricultural payouts for domestic political expediency) rather than spent on infrastructure like in other
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY countries.
Now Ireland is the most compliant and spineless when it comes to resisting the horshi*t that Brussels is about
Really then I guess the 1100 Km of Motorways by 2020 doesn't exist or numerous other infrastructure projects that are visible for anybody going around the country, easy to see as generally signs up telling people it was part funded by EU Regional Aid.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 00:10   #43 (permalink)
 
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Shock!! Ireland is a net contributor to the EU for the first time in 2014 Ireland contributes more money than it gets to EU for first time - Independent.ie

Since 1973 Ireland has received in excess of 50 billion Euro. In 2014 it paid the EU 168 million Euro.

Hmmm why does Ireland support the EU? Who can guess?

Post Brexit it will increase by an estimated 138 million Eur per year https://brianhayesdublin.wordpress.c...million-hayes/

Maybe that support is about to dwindle in the light of continuing austerity and now having to pay more money to the EU?
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 07:52   #44 (permalink)
 
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... easy to see as generally signs up telling people it was part funded by EU Regional Aid.
Translated into every-day English that would be
Quote:
... easy to see as generally signs up telling people it was part funded by Other Peoples' Money.
It's when the Other Peoples' Money starts to dwindle and it has to come out of one's own pockets and, as LowNSlow has pointed out, one's own pockets are being stretched a bit far by having to fit in with what one really has rather than the never-never money that 'built up' the 'Celtic Paper Tiger', that opinions will no doubt alter as a bit more realism start to sink in. That love affair with the EU (which was in reality no more than a love affair with the EU's cash?) might crash into the rocks of reality.

Don't expect the future to be like the past when so much around is changing.
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Old 4th Aug 2017, 14:59   #45 (permalink)
 
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Yes, Ireland is a recent net contributor to the EU budgets. That’s a very good news story for both Ireland and EU while from a social and economics perspective a very strong performance. On all counts, something to be celebrated.

When Ireland joined the bloc it was still suffering the consequences of decades of protectionism (from 1920’s to 1950’s) and the drain on resources of the century before that. From the 1950’s on, the country started to open up and look for new markets and investment. The progress made in the ’50s and ‘60s paved the way for EEC membership. At the start of the 1970’s, just before accession Ireland was still heavily dependent on agriculture; 25% of Irelands GDP came from the sector, today Agri-Food is about 5% of GDP much of which is "value add” on top of the natively cultivated food and livestock.

European and national government policy allowed for investment across all sectors and infrastructure that in just a generation or two has transformed the country and broadened the economic base improving the standard of living. Today, Irelands money goes into the pot with other net contributors to help deliver similar opportunities and improvements to the other member states of the Union.

Few, if anyone in Ireland feels obliged to Europe. Grateful? Certainly. Obliged? Absolutely not. You only have to look at both the Nice and Lisbon referenda to see that. In both cases a change to our relationship with Europe was proposed and in both cases the initial offerings were rejected by the citizenry. On foot of that, in each case, the offers were renegotiated and revised proposals passed. To suggest that either the Irish State or Irish citizens are beholden to the EU is at best ill-informed and at worst ...


As for “Years of cap in hand taking of handouts (that were wasted in agricultural payouts for domestic political expediency)”, that would be Food Security, arguably the first obligation of government, to ensure that their population have consistent access to sufficient quantities of good quality food at affordable prices (in the truest sense of the phrase a strategic investment) and shockingly something neglected by successive UK Governments down through the decades with the result that today the UK can’t feed itself, growing only about 40% of the food it consumes and in doing so imports almost 60% of the animal feed needed.

Yes, Ireland’s net contribution to the EU will go up and post-Brexit by more that it would have otherwise. The contribution of each member will be based on how its economy is performing. So long as Ireland’s does well, the country will be a net payer and most will be happy to keep paying the membership fees. Generally Irish people, especially the thirty-somethings and younger are very outward looking, see themselves as European (in a geographic sense) and see the benefits of membership of a larger political, economic and social bloc.

The very real concern is that Brexit will deny the citizens of Northern Ireland the very real chance of similar opportunities for a better standard of living.

JAS

Last edited by Just a spotter; 4th Aug 2017 at 15:26.
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Old 5th Aug 2017, 00:07   #46 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Translated into every-day English that would be
It's when the Other Peoples' Money starts to dwindle and it has to come out of one's own pockets and, as LowNSlow has pointed out, one's own pockets are being stretched a bit far by having to fit in with what one really has rather than the never-never money that 'built up' the 'Celtic Paper Tiger', that opinions will no doubt alter as a bit more realism start to sink in. That love affair with the EU (which was in reality no more than a love affair with the EU's cash?) might crash into the rocks of reality.

Don't expect the future to be like the past when so much around is changing.
And our British Empire was built on what exactly............................... oh wait it was other peoples resources and slaves
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 00:37   #47 (permalink)
 
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Incidentally there are already several land borders between EU and non EU countries. Norway - Sweden is the obvious example, as are the frontiers between Switzerland and Austria, France, Germany and Italy. They all seem to work ok without being hermetically sealed, why not one between the North and the South in Ireland?
Exactly, and that is what will happen once the sabre-rattling ends.


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So, if we can make the UK/Channel Islands "border" work with minimal hassle, why can't we do the same for the border with the RoI?
We can and we will as we have since 1922. If the EU has a problem that is a matter for it.


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After all, like the Channel Islands, the RoI is within the Common Travel Area - nothing to do with the EU, as UK/Irish/Channel Islands/Isle of Man have always had free travel, with no need for passports etc. Part of my family lives in Ireland still, and even before the UK joined the EEC (then the EU) there was never a requirement to have a passport to travel to Ireland, nor a need for anyone from Ireland to have one when coming to the UK.
Indeed.


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ROI should leave the EU along with us. Problem solved.
Good idea, but the ROI is not convinced - yet.

It is likely to happen a few years down the line and it won't just be the ROI.


Quote:
There will not be a hard border in Ireland, any London politician who thinks there will seriously needs their head examined.
As does any reader/contributor of this thread who thinks otherwise. There also won't be a hard border in the Irish Sea as suggested by some.


Quote:
Ireland is and always has been pro EU.
Not always, back in 1961 and 1967 Ireland, along with Denmark and Norway, withdrew its application to join the EEC (as it was then) when the UK's application was vetoed.

With the UK out, the EU will rigourously pursue the goal of ever-closer union and the creation of a fully fledged "evil empire". The UK was always seen as the major obstacle to this.

None of the north Europe EU countries has a stomach for ever-closer union and that includes Ireland. Won't be tomorrow or next year, but sometime in the not too distant future.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 07:31   #48 (permalink)
 
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Whatever people may think or feel now about Brexit and the handling of UK/RoI relations, it is inescapable that Ireland is a part of the Anglo-sphere. In the future when the UK has settled trade deals with the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India and starts to have closer ties with the first four, especially the CANZ trio I think the Irish will come to realise that they belong there too and not with the EU, if indeed the EU still exists. It is facing an existential crisis on many fronts.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 15:58   #49 (permalink)
 
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Incidentally there are already several land borders between EU and non EU countries. Norway - Sweden is the obvious example, as are the frontiers between Switzerland and Austria, France, Germany and Italy.
To clarify, Switzerland is a member of Schengen (as are the other four countries mentioned as is our other neighbour Liechtenstein) meaning there is a free movement of people.

Switzerland is NOT a member of the European Customs union meaning there is NOT free movement of goods. Try and cross the frontier in a lorry and you will see what a hard border is. Every truck stopped, papers produced, duties; fees; and taxes paid. Land at GVA or ZRH from an EU country? You are subject to import duties etc. Arrive by train from Austria? Swiss customs officers board the train at Buchs and ask if you have "anything to declare"?

The UK electorate, supposedly, does not want either free movement of people, or free movement of goods. Your border with Ireland will be harder than ours is with the EU. Passport or ID card (oh, wait ...) control the most obvious.

Norway with its relatively open border with Sweden has free movement of people and goods agreements with the EU.

Last edited by ExXB; 13th Aug 2017 at 17:52. Reason: Typo
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 19:39   #50 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger View Post
Whatever people may think or feel now about Brexit and the handling of UK/RoI relations, it is inescapable that Ireland is a part of the Anglo-sphere. In the future when the UK has settled trade deals with the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India and starts to have closer ties with the first four, especially the CANZ trio I think the Irish will come to realise that they belong there too and not with the EU, if indeed the EU still exists. It is facing an existential crisis on many fronts.
You really are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Empire is DEAD, attempts by UK to turn around and tell these countrys you are our strategic trading nation now will get laughed at.

What has UK got worth selling to them ?

Australia's most important trading Nation is China 1/3 of exports and 1/4 of Imports, Canada's is US. India is US and China.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 19:41   #51 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post

The UK electorate, supposedly, does not want either free movement of people, or free movement of goods. Your border with Ireland will be harder than ours is with the EU. Passport or ID card (oh, wait ...) control the most obvious.

Norway with its relatively open border with Sweden has free movement of people and goods agreements with the EU.
UK couldn't keep NI border closed with thousands of troops and police.... they have zero chance in Brexit, put up cameras and watch them get torn down. There are circa 400 plus crossing points.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 20:22   #52 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger View Post
Whatever people may think or feel now about Brexit and the handling of UK/RoI relations, it is inescapable that Ireland is a part of the Anglo-sphere. In the future when the UK has settled trade deals with the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India and starts to have closer ties with the first four, especially the CANZ trio I think the Irish will come to realise that they belong there too and not with the EU, if indeed the EU still exists. It is facing an existential crisis on many fronts.

You really are living in cloud cuckoo land.

A tad rude and aggressive, don't you think?

Empire is DEAD, attempts by UK to turn around and tell these countrys you are our strategic trading nation now will get laughed at.

That old cliché. Is that the best you can do? Who said anything about the Empire? Did you miss the prime ministers/presidents of the countries (correct sp) mentioned making it plain that they wished to conclude free-trade deals with the UK ASAP? Could it not be because of our historical and family connections and the fact that they, and we, speak ENGLISH?

What has UK got worth selling to them ?

Ohh, let me see. How about top-quality agricultural produce; whiskey, gin and beers; quality motor vehicles; aircraft and aircraft parts; military equipment; maritime products. light engineering products; financial services; legal services; entertainment. Why don't you ask them? Why do you hate the UK so much? Wouldn't you be happier living somewhere else?

Australia's most important trading Nation is China 1/3 of exports and 1/4 of Imports, Canada's is US. India is US and China.

And Ireland's is the UK. So what? It doesn't exclude any country growing its trade with some countries at the expense of others. Trade growth in any case is down to entrepreneurs and customers and it is not a zero sum game. If trade increases, everyone wins. If people want something, they'll buy it regardless of who sells it.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 21:00   #53 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
What has UK got worth selling to them ?
Well we are/were the 7th largest manufacturing nation in the entire world for a start as at 2016 data point.
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 22:35   #54 (permalink)
 
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Borders.
What happened border wise in pre Common Market/EU days?
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 23:50   #55 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger View Post

A tad rude and aggressive, don't you think?


Do you actually know any Irish people..........

Their view on Brexit is UK stuffed it up and hasn't a clue what to do.
EU happily supporting Ireland on the border issue and will continue to do so.

Quote:
That old cliché. Is that the best you can do? Who said anything about the Empire? Did you miss the prime ministers/presidents of the countries (correct sp) mentioned making it plain that they wished to conclude free-trade deals with the UK ASAP? Could it not be because of our historical and family connections and the fact that they, and we, speak ENGLISH?
ROFL

Everybody will tell you how important you are and how important a trade deal is................... then they look at what is in it for their country.

India was quite happy to say it and then said BTW VISA Free access to UK will be part of any deal.
US have said "Sure" but then said of course UK will be wholly open to US Agricultural products from across the US so hello Chlorine washed chicken and GM Foods.
UK needs a trade deal, they can just wait and they will get what they want.

Quote:
Ohh, let me see. How about top-quality agricultural produce; whiskey, gin and beers; quality motor vehicles; aircraft and aircraft parts; military equipment; maritime products. light engineering products; financial services; legal services; entertainment. Why don't you ask them? Why do you hate the UK so much? Wouldn't you be happier living somewhere else?
Australia limits foreign agri products to avoid contamination............... it ain't going to change it.
Motor Vehicles............... which ones ? From the Indian, German, Japanese or US owned car manufacturers in the UK. Why bother when they have other factories who can do it around the world.
Alcohol products................. nothing stops you selling them now so how will a trade deal help ?
Aircraft................. exactly what aircraft does UK produce, makes wings for Airbus but that can be done elsewhere.
Financial Services / Legal services / Entertainment.................. exactly what currently stops them being sold ........... oh wait nothing so a trade deal will make no change
Arms industry.............. India buying Rafales and Migs, Australia buying US and Trump ensuirng US buys US


Quote:

And Ireland's is the UK. So what? It doesn't exclude any country growing its trade with some countries at the expense of others. Trade growth in any case is down to entrepreneurs and customers and it is not a zero sum game. If trade increases, everyone wins. If people want something, they'll buy it regardless of who sells it.
Fraid not as US takes 26% of Exports ($33 Billion ) and 17% of Imports ($12.7bn) v UK 13% Exports ($16.5bn) and 24% of Imports ($18.4bn.
US is 1/3 more important than UK

Ireland can still happily sell in EU without tarrifs or any barriers
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Old 13th Aug 2017, 23:54   #56 (permalink)
 
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Well we are/were the 7th largest manufacturing nation in the entire world for a start as at 2016 data point.
Exclude FDI and just look at UK owned and what is it then.
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 17:21   #57 (permalink)
 
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UK couldn't keep NI border closed with thousands of troops and police.... they have zero chance in Brexit, put up cameras and watch them get torn down. There are circa 400 plus crossing points.
Well it is the UK that wants to give up free movement of people, goods and services. Just because it would be difficult to implement doesn't seem to worry those in favour of leaving the EU.

Of course the easiest method would be a hard border between GB and all of Ireland. Only 1.8 million would object to that, and most of them voted against Brexit anyway.
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Old 14th Aug 2017, 17:39   #58 (permalink)
 
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UK couldn't keep NI border closed with thousands of troops and police.... they have zero chance in Brexit, put up cameras and watch them get torn down. There are circa 400 plus crossing points.
The UK government can't even try - if they haven't already got planning permission for border works it's already too late.


(And for the lorry queuing areas at the channel ports.)
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 14:16   #59 (permalink)
 
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It seems the EU position is hardening against the prospect of a hard border across Ireland.

From RTÉ News, 10th November 2017;

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An internal EU paper has suggested that the avoidance of a hard border on the island of Ireland effectively requires Northern Ireland to remain in the single market and the customs union. The working paper, seen by RTÉ News, says that in order to avoid a hard border it is essential that there be no divergence of rules on either side of the Irish border.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1109/91...-after-brexit/

An article earlier in the week by RTÉ's Europe Correspondent Tony Connolly provides some good insight into the issues around food and agriculture standards;

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1104/917420-brexit/

JAS
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 14:51   #60 (permalink)
 
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Overheard in our local last week-

"Carn't see why them politishuns don't jus merge Ireland with North Ireland!"

Well it would sort the border out
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