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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

Old 27th Jul 2017, 08:55
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
I hope that day never comes because driving for that length of time without sensible breaks for the average driver is unsafe.

Even commercial drivers have to take at least 45 minutes break every 4.5 hours.

The Tesla Model S can cover 500 miles with one stop of approximately 40 minutes or less.

Besides which how often does the average person drive 500 miles in the UK?



Petrol cars are never going to catch on because I would have to stop to fill up and there are few petrol stations whereas I can carry plenty of hay for my horse to last all day.

My horse is more reliable than these new fangled and noisy engines.

My horse is quieter and much more reliable.

Horses are smaller and can fit on narrower tracks than cars.

Horse pollution can be used as fertiliser but exhaust smoke can't.

My horse doesn't run out of fuel and stop I just have to feed it at the end of each day.

Nah, not for me I am going to stick with the proven technology of my horse, you evangelists can keep your petrol cars.
Nice try, but when did riders ever travel 500 miles on a single horse?
People who could afford to travel went by coaches which changed horses at each stage of the journey.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 09:00
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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In my opinion the electric car, in it's present state of development, is completely impractical for most car users. If ever it was developed to a state where it could be charged in the same time as it takes to refuel with petrol or diesel and could be driven several hundred miles before needing a re-charge, then I would become a supporter. As an example of impracticality imagine a street of terrace houses all with one or more cars. What do owners do - run cables across the pavement into their houses [ presumably through doors or windows left slightly open ] ? The other issues of generating enough power have been well covered. How about the issue of villains having a field day in stealing cables and other hardware ?
The opposition to electric cars, at present, is because of their impracticality, not because it's a "new thing"
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 09:15
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by papajuliet View Post
In my opinion the electric car, in it's present state of development, is completely impractical for most car users. If ever it was developed to a state where it could be charged in the same time as it takes to refuel with petrol or diesel and could be driven several hundred miles before needing a re-charge, then I would become a supporter. As an example of impracticality imagine a street of terrace houses all with one or more cars. What do owners do - run cables across the pavement into their houses [ presumably through doors or windows left slightly open ] ? The other issues of generating enough power have been well covered. How about the issue of villains having a field day in stealing cables and other hardware ?
The opposition to electric cars, at present, is because of their impracticality, not because it's a "new thing"
Exactly the same argument was put forward as a reason for not having petrol engined cars. Petrol was not readily available, and had to be purchased from a few specialist retailers, then stored in cans, whereas hay was available all over the country to feed horses, with a large network of coaching inns and livery stables that had been set up over the previous few centuries.

As soon as the demand for petrol increased, entrepreneurs established garages and filling stations, to take over the role of the long-established coaching inns and livery stables. This all happened over a period of a couple of decades or so - the same sort of time period as between now and 2040.


As for charging times, then these have reduced very dramatically in just the last 10 years. We've gone from overnight charging to charging to very fast chargers that can deliver 170 miles of range in 30 minutes.

The other key point that the narrow minded seem to miss, is that the whole filling station model largely goes out the window when most people can "fuel" their cars at home or work. Charge time doesn't matter if you know that every morning your car is going to be fully charged, or every evening when you leave work it will be. You get used to not thinking about filling stations.

As an example, I drive around 10,000 to 12,000 miles a year. I fill up with around 40 litres of petrol about once every 6 weeks or so. I so rarely look at the fuel gauge that I almost always only think about filling up when the car beeps a low fuel alarm, as filling up is such an infrequent event. The contrast with the time when I was filling the car up once or twice a week is stark.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 10:07
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I will be driving about 500 miles in one stint shortly and a pure electric car would just not hack it.
Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
I hope that day never comes because driving for that length of time without sensible breaks for the average driver is unsafe.

Even commercial drivers have to take at least 45 minutes break every 4.5 ours.
.
It is easy and safe enough doing long journeys if you plan carefully,myself and 'er indoors' often do 500 mile plus journeys,we will preplan our stops,go for a whiz - have a few mins walkabout,top up from onboard coffee flask and swap over driver duties - we are usually back on the road in circa 10mins with a fresh driver . Our car has an easy 600 mile range cruising at (cough) 70mph.

Besides which how often does the average person drive 500 miles in the UK?
Please remember that not everybody lives near london - some of us have to drive 500 miles to get (say) to southampton
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 10:13
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Aluminium cables. Great. All of a sudden, I'd switch the kettle on and the MCBO would open. Cooker didn't seem to heat up either. Called 'leccy board and man comes and measures volts. 234. Strange says I, 'cos it's normally 239. Let me put on the cooker......one ring and lo and behold, mains is now 180 at the company fuse. Neutral, despite being earthed on a pole in the garden, is some 50 volts above earth - house is on its own earth as a TT installation. The problem was a bad copper to aluminium joint in the overhead cable. The o/h line gang complained that it was third one they had to fix that week.

One of the local electrical contractors told me that aluminium cabling had been a nice source of income - in replacing it with copper in schools because of the number of fires that had resulted!

Nobody has yet said how people in properties without an attached garage or parking space are going to charge their car up at home. Or where all these power stations are going to be or what sort - nuclear, gas, wind? Or how the distribution network is going to be upgraded when everybody in the street wants to recharge at the same time.

The usual response is that the technology will develop to cover these points. Maybe - and maybe not.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 10:19
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
It is easy and safe enough doing long journeys if you plan carefully,myself and 'er indoors' often do 500 mile plus journeys,we will preplan our stops,go for a whiz - have a few mins walkabout,top up from onboard coffee flask and swap over driver duties - we are usually back on the road in circa 10mins with a fresh driver . Our car has an easy 600 mile range cruising at (cough) 70mph.



Please remember that not everybody lives near london - some of us have to drive 500 miles to get (say) to southampton
So what's wrong with a hybrid, then? Hybrids are excluded from the proposed 2040 "ban", and most will easily do over 500 miles on a tank of fuel.

It seems to me that there are a fair few people here that are so fixated on a very narrow range of personal transport systems that they are unwilling to even openly think about all the alternatives that are likely to mature into practical vehicles by 2040.

Personally, I wouldn't even want to try and guess what the motive power for personal vehicles might be in 20 odd years time. Developments in fuel cells, energy storage systems etc will almost certainly make current battery technology look a bit old hat.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 10:29
  #107 (permalink)  
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I hope that day never comes because driving for that length of time without sensible breaks for the average driver is unsafe.

There's always at least one stop for a pee and a tea. I don't fancy the prospect of hanging around for an hour to recharge the car, especially if it means I then hit the bottlenecks such as Brum at peak periods.


Horse pollution can be used as fertiliser but exhaust smoke can't

On the contrary, if we ignore the nitrogen that simply passes through an engine then by far the most abundant component is CO2 (about 14%) which is can be absorbed by plant life. Next comes unused oxygen at 10%.


How much methane does your horse produce ?
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:15
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
So what's wrong with a hybrid, then? Hybrids are excluded from the proposed 2040 "ban", and most will easily do over 500 miles on a tank of fuel.

It seems to me that there are a fair few people here that are so fixated on a very narrow range of personal transport systems that they are unwilling to even openly think about all the alternatives that are likely to mature into practical vehicles by 2040.

.
I wasn't advocating any particular power source VP
Just merely suggesting that long range driving can be planned with options unless you are driving alone (which would perhaps be a little different).
Hybrids are obviously an option,but as a previous poster said - to a large extent the 'electric car' is a london solution to a london problem - electric cars are not going to be very 'green' overall (other than reducing soot/gases in cities/large town centres) for a variety of (well covered on here ) reasons.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:38
  #109 (permalink)  

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Quote: Besides which how often does the average person drive 500 miles in the UK?

Please remember that not everybody lives near london - some of us have to drive 500 miles to get (say) to southampton
Some of us who live near London also drive 500 miles to Scotland. You answered a different question to the one asked. I asked how often does one drive that distance and you replied stating you are 500 miles from Northampton. How often do you do that?

Someone asked about people with no off street parking. Have a look here. I think it is called innovation. Humans are quite good at that.


I drive an electric car. I also drive a petrol car. I really don't care if nobody else wants to drive an electric car but please base your dislike and objections on facts not what you think is the reality. Go and drive one. I did in a bored moment with a shed load of questions and a bucketful of cynicism. I bought one a month later.

There is a great deal of bull talked about the environment and pollution but there is no escaping the fact that the air, in cities especially, is rank with pollution from vehicles. It doesn't affect me because I do not live in a city but I would like to think that for the greater good solutions will be found. EVs are but one answer and at the moment they seem the best bet until the next new technology appears.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:40
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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London Mayor Sadiq Khan when France announces its new policy...

“I welcome the strong leadership the French government has shown by making the decision to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2040.
This radical step shames the timid and insufficient response of our own government to the health threat posed by poor air quality.”

London Mayor Sadiq Khan when the UK government announces the very same policy...

“A half-hearted commitment from Government simply isn’t good enough…
The commitment to phase out sales of new diesel cars is welcome, but Londoners suffering right now simply can’t afford to wait until 2040.”

https://order-order.com/2017/07/27/p...-bash-british/

Sadiq Khan; deficient in stature, overflowing with hypocrisy.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:43
  #111 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
As soon as the demand for petrol increased, entrepreneurs established garages and filling stations, to take over the role of the long-established coaching inns and livery stables. This all happened over a period of a couple of decades or so - the same sort of time period as between now and 2040.
The difference is that petrol had to be bought - and money could be made from the sale.

We are lead to believe that electricity for EVs is free or at very little cost - leaving very little opportunity for paying for the recharging points.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:46
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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The Tesla Model S can cover 500 miles with one stop of approximately 40 minutes or less.

Besides which how often does the average person drive 500 miles in the UK?
The Tesla Model S also costs £60k - for the basic model. Who has that sort of cash readily available to splash on a car? I'm a responsible spender - the only 'loan' I have is my mortgage... i refuse to use loans and pay interest to buy things.

My drive to work is 115 miles each way. The Tesla Model S only just makes this a feasible proposition - unless I want to add a 40 minute stop on on of the legs of the commute. I know you state it is a 500 mile range but the practicality of that is not true - if i can't recharge it at work and I hit traffic or a road is closed (as is often the case on the A34), then I am pushing my luck if I go for the whole 2 way commute without charging the car.

Give me something with 800 mile range that costs £30k then I will be interested
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:58
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post

Someone asked about people with no off street parking. Have a look here. I think it is called innovation. Humans are quite good at that.
In most suburban streets there will be up to ten cars parked for each street light.
The lights may be only on one side of the street.
The posts need to be resupplied to provide 32A for charging instead of 0.5A for a light.

Your link makes a neat demonstration, but not a solution to the real problem. And it doesn't explain how all those 32A connections will be supplied by a national grid already threatened with brown outs.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 11:59
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by radeng View Post
Aluminium cables. Great. All of a sudden, I'd switch the kettle on and the MCBO would open. Cooker didn't seem to heat up either. Called 'leccy board and man comes and measures volts. 234. Strange says I, 'cos it's normally 239. Let me put on the cooker......one ring and lo and behold, mains is now 180 at the company fuse. Neutral, despite being earthed on a pole in the garden, is some 50 volts above earth - house is on its own earth as a TT installation. The problem was a bad copper to aluminium joint in the overhead cable. The o/h line gang complained that it was third one they had to fix that week.
Radeng,

You've hit the nail on the head...it's the transitions that cause the problem! Aluminium is generally very reliable (and so are the transitions if carried out correctly). The industry did have a problem with CONSAC cable, introduced in the 70s / 80s. This was just a bad design of aluminium cable, but subsequent designs work perfectly well. In the UK, nearly all LV cables and 11kV cables are now aluminium...only at higher voltages is copper still commonplace.

However, they will all be running hot if this scheme ever comes to fruition! You simply can't beat the energy density of carbon fuels!
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:04
  #115 (permalink)  

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anotherthing

I don't state it has a 500 mile range but that 500 miles is easily achieved with a small amount of planning. If you truly commute 115 miles each way I agree that other than a Model S there is not a pure electric car which would suit your needs.

Would you say your 230 mile round trip is a typical commute for the majority of people?

The price of Tesla's is very high and I appreciate that they are not affordable for many but that will change.

Sallyanne1234

So is what you state an insurmountable problem?
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:05
  #116 (permalink)  
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I remember when my grandparents' house had electricity only capable of supplying 5 amps.
My first college room was similar - no electric fires permitted.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:06
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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We are lead to believe that electricity for EVs is free or at very little cost - leaving very little opportunity for paying for the recharging points.

I'll bet that by 2025 electricity for re-charging purposes will be anything but free.
Taxes have to be made up and likely increased due to inflation and higher usage.
Business (power companies) never miss any opportunity to make money, especially when they will be struggling to meet demand..
Whether it be re-charging stations, cables from home winding over the pavements (watch out for H&SE), in-street tarmac charging - there will be charges.


Solar on every home and Tesla home batteries will not work in most of the current housing infrastructure especially in British cities and that will not be replaced to suit at anywhere even slightly close to the need to do so.


For cities like London and Paris, electric mass transit will be the only really sensible way to go. But that will not work for all those who consider themselves above the sweaty masses and would shrivel and die without their personal transports will it?
And I suppose everyone sometimes leaves their cities for the hinterlands and mass-transit would never cover that requirement.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:07
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
I wasn't advocating any particular power source VP
Just merely suggesting that long range driving can be planned with options unless you are driving alone (which would perhaps be a little different).
Hybrids are obviously an option,but as a previous poster said - to a large extent the 'electric car' is a london solution to a london problem - electric cars are not going to be very 'green' overall (other than reducing soot/gases in cities/large town centres) for a variety of (well covered on here ) reasons.
I live out in the country, around 90 miles South West of London, frequently drive long distances (we like holidays in North West Scotland) and have been driving a plug-in hybrid for the past three and half years.

45% of the mileage I've driven in the car has been in electric vehicle mode, i.e. the petrol engine turned off. My daily commute is 16 miles each way.

I can say with absolute certainty that an electric car is not just a solution to a "London problem". I know a couple of people near me that switched to owning Nissan Leafs a couple of years ago, and neither of them have a problem with range.

When it comes to emissions, then there is a large reduction overall from an electric car charged by the grid. The grid is a heck of a lot more efficient than the very best car engine, around half the emissions per kWh at the charge point, after allowing for distribution losses etc. The best car engines can barely get to around 40% efficiency, most struggle to get to 30% efficiency under real-world conditions, and yet even our "dirtiest" fossil fuel power stations manage around 55% efficiency. Add in the fairly significant zero emissions grid generation and the overall grid efficiency increases to well over 60%.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:13
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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I noticed last weekend that our local ASDA (UK subsidiary of Walmart) has parking spaces with charging points next to the disabled parking bays. None were in use of course. Electric cars won't have mass market appeal until they're fitted with APU's, such as a small Honda generator (with catalytic converter, naturally), at least until the batteries last a week, take less than an hour to recharge, and cost less than a new car to replace.
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:13
  #120 (permalink)  
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We've gone from overnight charging to charging to very fast chargers that can deliver 170 miles of range in 30 minutes.
There is the not so small matter of increasing the electricity generating capacity to service all 26 million of the cars on the road in UK at least once a week and then there's all the commercial vehicles. The national grid will require complete re-building.

On the news it was said that 60% of the cars in Norway are electric. I doubt it, but if true that would still make just 1.5 million cars and Norway has huge hydro-electric generation capacity.

The plan is certainly achievable, I'm just thinking out loud about some of the extremely expensive practical problems that will need to be solved in carrying it out. It's not simply a matter of sticking a few extra charging points in the car parks.
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