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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

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No new Diesel or Petrol cars after 2040 in UK

Old 7th Oct 2020, 06:44
  #701 (permalink)  
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Which is why, as posted earlier, hydrogen powered trains are already being introduced - and hydrogen will probably end up powering most large freight vehicles.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:17
  #702 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by radeng View Post
Will there be no diesel locomotives? Or trucks? How big an how heavy a battery would you need to store say 40kWH - even that's a bit shy for replacing a Class 47 for a day.
As a matter of interest, what is the daily power consumption of a Class 47 loco?

I believe high speed trains are surprisingly inefficient considering they run on rails because they are so massively heavy per seat and they need a lot of energy to accelerate which is lost in braking. Of course, if they were battery electric much of this should be recoverable with regenerative braking.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:32
  #703 (permalink)  
 
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The closest we have to a real world heavy electric vehicle is the Tesla Semi. Range is up to 500 miles on a single charge, and it's a Class 8 (80,000 lbs vehicle capacity) truck. These trucks are already running as prototypes, and I believe there are hundreds of orders for them from hauliers. The reason they are being ordered is because they are cost effective, in terms of cost per tonne of freight shifted per unit distance. They offer a lifetime cost saving over an equivalent diesel truck of around $200,000, and pay back their higher initial purchase price within two years.

Their is a cost advantage in using batteries, as the battery packs use the same cells that are used in a wide range of products, from smaller cars up to grid storage Megapacks. These are already in mass production, Megapacks (up to 3 MWh each modular grid storage packs) are being delivered now. Whilst hydrogen power may look promising, it's much lower energy efficiency and relatively immature stage of development, makes it very much a back runner. Most of the available investment seems to be going into batteries, rather than hydrogen power, so it's questionable as to whether hydrogen could catch up in any reasonable timescale.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:36
  #704 (permalink)  
 
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This Hydrogen powered train is already running passenger services in Germany and Austria.

https://www.alstom.com/solutions/rol...-powered-train


https://www.alstom.com/press-release...ervice-austria
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 14:01
  #705 (permalink)  
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Trials of the Hydroflex train started in the UK on 30th September. The train on test is a demonstrator unit, the production version will be configured for operation using both overhead-electric-wires and hydrogen for non-electrified routes and routes where there is only partial electrification of the network. Modified units are expected to enter service in 2023.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/lat...me-30-09-2020/
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 14:30
  #706 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...on-course/amp/
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 15:20
  #707 (permalink)  
 
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I worry too much to ever be comfortable with an all electric car at the moment. Planning is all well and good but what if all the spaces are occupied, some out of service etc. I would self combust trying to deal with the uncertainty. Perhaps when the city busses are all electric. Have the powers that be got a plan for HGVs?
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 15:39
  #708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
I worry too much to ever be comfortable with an all electric car at the moment. Planning is all well and good but what if all the spaces are occupied, some out of service etc. I would self combust trying to deal with the uncertainty. Perhaps when the city busses are all electric. Have the powers that be got a plan for HGVs?
I sort of eased my way into it, by driving a plug-in hybrid first, and getting used to both plugging it in every time I got home and seeing how far it would go before I had to switch from EV mode to ICE mode. After five years driving that I had a pretty good feel for the way range changes with temperature, speed etc, so the transition to an EV was less of a challenge.

So far, I've only once run the car down so that it only had around 30 to 40 miles of range left, and that was deliberate, just to see whether I could get from here to Totnes and back without stopping to charge (~240 mile round trip). If I had needed to stop there were 11 rapid charge points on the ~120 mile route, so it wouldn't have been any hassle. Most rapid charge points are installed in multiple bays, typically anything from 4 to 20 chargers at any location, so the chance of not being able to find one vacant isn't that high. The majority of EV owners don't routinely charge using rapid chargers, either, most destination charge overnight, so the usage of chargers isn't as great as it is for conventional cars, that always have to refuel at a filling station.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 17:54
  #709 (permalink)  
 
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Er, Mr Optimistic,

Are you allowed to "worry too much", given your name on here?
It sounds a bit like me claiming to be a teenager.

(Of course, I am very young inside)
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 18:19
  #710 (permalink)  

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I worry too much to ever be comfortable with an all electric car at the moment. Planning is all well and good but what if all the spaces are occupied, some out of service etc. I would self combust trying to deal with the uncertainty.
Otherwise known as 'range anxiety'. Quite normal.....for a few weeks. I never give it more than a cursory thought unless I am going on a journey of more than 200 miles and then only as much thought as to where I will stop. The navigation system plans it for you anyway including how long to stop for.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 18:49
  #711 (permalink)  
 
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Today Hyundai delivered the first 7 out of 50 hydrogen powered trucks to customers in Switzerland.
According to the press release, they each have a 190 Kilowatt fuel cell stack and seven high pressure tanks, holding 33kgs of hydrogen, giving them a range “far further” than comparable vehicles powered by electric batteries on the market now.

Have we been lulled into electricity?
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 18:56
  #712 (permalink)  
 
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190 kW for a truck doesn't seem enough to me, although I don't know much about trucks. The battery pack in my car can deliver over 350 kW, for example, and that's just for a medium sized saloon car. I'd have thought that a truck would need a fair bit more power available to allow for climbing hills with a heavy load, or accelerate up to speed reasonably quickly.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 21:16
  #713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The closest we have to a real world heavy electric vehicle is the Tesla Semi. Range is up to 500 miles on a single charge, and it's a Class 8 (80,000 lbs vehicle capacity) truck. These trucks are already running as prototypes, and I believe there are hundreds of orders for them from hauliers. The reason they are being ordered is because they are cost effective, in terms of cost per tonne of freight shifted per unit distance. They offer a lifetime cost saving over an equivalent diesel truck of around $200,000, and pay back their higher initial purchase price within two years.

Their is a cost advantage in using batteries, as the battery packs use the same cells that are used in a wide range of products, from smaller cars up to grid storage Megapacks. These are already in mass production, Megapacks (up to 3 MWh each modular grid storage packs) are being delivered now. Whilst hydrogen power may look promising, it's much lower energy efficiency and relatively immature stage of development, makes it very much a back runner. Most of the available investment seems to be going into batteries, rather than hydrogen power, so it's questionable as to whether hydrogen could catch up in any reasonable timescale.
it really depends on utilization time of the truck. If you have high utilization time or if you can’t always load where you rest it will be more expensive. But for short distance door to door delivery the semi is awesome
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 22:13
  #714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
190 kW for a truck doesn't seem enough to me, although I don't know much about trucks. The battery pack in my car can deliver over 350 kW, for example, and that's just for a medium sized saloon car. I'd have thought that a truck would need a fair bit more power available to allow for climbing hills with a heavy load, or accelerate up to speed reasonably quickly.
We should find out pretty quick.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 22:22
  #715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
190 kW for a truck doesn't seem enough to me, although I don't know much about trucks. The battery pack in my car can deliver over 350 kW, for example, and that's just for a medium sized saloon car. I'd have thought that a truck would need a fair bit more power available to allow for climbing hills with a heavy load, or accelerate up to speed reasonably quickly.
Depends on the size of the truck - that's ~255 hp, which is in line with what most medium size trucks have, although it would be rather light for a big semi tractor. But as you know electrical motors have full torque at low RPM - and that's what trucks need.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 22:28
  #716 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Depends on the size of the truck - that's ~255 hp, which is in line with what most medium size trucks have, although it would be rather light for a big semi tractor. But as you know electrical motors have full torque at low RPM - and that's what trucks need.
Thanks, it just seemed a bit low, but then I guess trucks don't need to accelerate that quickly, or travel at high speeds. My view is perhaps a bit distorted from driving around in a saloon car that has way more power than that available under my right foot . . .
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 06:13
  #717 (permalink)  
 
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Apple have patented a hydrogen fuel cell to power its laptops.

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/ap...l-macbook-ipad

There is no reason why hydrogen and battery power can’t both be used alongside each other in the same way that petrol and diesel are at the moment. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and one may be better than the other for specific applications.

The infrastructure for battery powered cars is largely in place at the moment, however as the link above shows, further R&D with hydrogen fuel cells has great potential.

It doesn’t have to be exclusively one or the other.

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Old 8th Oct 2020, 08:03
  #718 (permalink)  

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The infrastructure for battery powered cars is largely in place at the moment
I’m by no means that statement is true; certainly not here in UK. The basics of it might be, but a capacity for the majority of car owners certainly doesn’t seem to be available as yet.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 08:20
  #719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I’m by no means that statement is true; certainly not here in UK. The basics of it might be, but a capacity for the majority of car owners certainly doesn’t seem to be available as yet.
At the moment there are far more chargers/charge points in the UK than fuel pumps. How many do you want?

For example, driving south west from here down to Totnes, a journey of around 120 miles, means I drive past 11 DC rapid charge locations, plus many AC fast charge points, most with multiple chargers/charge points. I doubt there's that many filling stations along that route, and that route isn't one well served by rapid chargers, compared to some. There are some places, notably large areas of Wales and parts of the Scottish Highlands, that don't have chargers, but that's gradually changing, and those areas usually have access to destination charging for those staying there.

This map has a pin showing every UK charger:


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Old 8th Oct 2020, 08:48
  #720 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Thanks, it just seemed a bit low, but then I guess trucks don't need to accelerate that quickly, or travel at high speeds. My view is perhaps a bit distorted from driving around in a saloon car that has way more power than that available under my right foot . . .
The published specs of the hyundi truck give the motor as 350kW (which is comparable to similar sized diesels). There is a battery that can deliver the shortfall when higher power is needed, which is recharged by the fuel cell or through braking. I guess that when you have the option of storing energy it doesn't make sense to have a power source that is capable of matching the peak requirement. I think that some of the hybrid busses operate on similar principles; operating a smaller diesel continuously at a more efficient speed.
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