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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

Old 21st Jul 2017, 05:16
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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

Given the announcement yesterday of the cancellation of the electrification work on some lines outside of the SE, coming in the same week that the first HS2 contracts were awarded I was wondering (while sitting here on Virgin East Coast) what people think about this.
For my part being in London 20min quicker from Yorkshire will just for shorten Breakfast !, and I and the other 6 people adjacent to me who are discussing it, also question the cost as well as if it is needed. Personally I feel it is a vanity project and the only possible effect will be to increase size of London commuter belt, and allow business in the capital to close more regional offices as happened in Lyon when TGV arrived there.


Over to you for your thoughts


Regards
Mr Mac
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 05:37
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My thoughts exactly Mr Mac and how convenient that the
announcement was made on the last day of Parliament.

I live in the East Midlands and we are not amused. Electrification
has been promised for decades and never materialised and it
looks like HS2 has now doomed it forever. Although there will
be an East Midlands Hub at Toton the extra time involved in
getting there will negate any time saved on the journey and I
don't care what they say, you can bet that HS2 will lead to a
deterioration on the service provided on the existing lines.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 06:53
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Location of head office

Perhaps companies should consider relocating their head office to York or Yorkshire. Why are they not following the idea of shareholder value? These days faster internet is more important than geographical location.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:00
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100% with you Mr Mac..............
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:05
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I'd prefer the money being spent on upgrading the MML and expanding other lines outside of the London and South East area rather than being wasted on HS2 which, to me, is no more than a vanity project and a cash cow for the selected major construction companies.

Can we have a referendum on the matter?
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:09
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Isn't one of the major aims of the HS2 project to increase capacity as well as provide high speed services?
http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/defau...%20Britain.pdf
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:10
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No one I've come across [ and that includes experienced enthusiasts of rail travel ] can see any benefits in HS2.
The subject was quite thoroughly debated in another thread sometime ago. There were some views in support but the majority were against it.
It's interesting to hear your views, as a long distance rail traveller, Mr Mac. I agree entirely with you.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:21
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
Isn't one of the major aims of the HS2 project to increase capacity as well as provide high speed services?
http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/defau...%20Britain.pdf
I suspect by re-doubling lines that have been singled could be a cheaper and quicker option - after all, the trackbed is already there and newly built homes would not have to be demolished. No doubt someone like Rail Engineer could express a far better informed and professional view on that option.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:26
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1) scrap the HS2
2) upgrade the existing lines to increase capacity
3) spend the rest on re-instating suitable lines that were closed under the Beeching axe.

But what do I know?
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:28
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4mastacker and gruntie your proposals sound sensible to me. I fail to see the need to knock 10-15 mins off journey times when a greater volume of seats would seem to be the higher priority.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:42
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People love to complain about the lack of jobs or manufacturing and prospects for future generations then we have an opportunity like HS2 and people say it's not needed.

As you say, certainly NOT needed..........manufacturing and jobs are much more important.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 08:54
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" At some point we need to replace the victorian system with a modern one

Any proposals as to how to replace approx. 10100 miles of track including the bit in N.I and those freight only lines then ?
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:04
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One thing is certain, we cannot go any faster on the old track without major reconstruction that will not only cost a fortune but will disrupt travel.
Not certain at all. Only certain if you want to stick with antiquated styles of train sets, with high COG and body much wider than it's wheel track width. I bet any good F1 designer starting with a clean sheet could produce a 200 mph vehicle that will run on these tracks. Small pods, say 8-10 pax, computer-controlled, linked together by radio to give optimum headway could well allow faster journey times with more pax throughput over a given route than enormous heavy train sets. That is the way to the future, not HS2.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:05
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Link together all the old forts, redundant or soon to be redundant rigs, old storage platforms, and take a new line out through the Thames Estuary and go straight up the middle of the North Sea to rejoin at Berwick or link to the islands in the Forth. The technology is not far from available and the impact on the environment and people would be minimal.

Now there's an infrastructure project with attitude.

You heard it here first (Maybe )

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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:10
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Policy planners in China would be rolling with laughter if they read these comments. China's massive expansion from an economic disaster to the second largest economy in the world has been achieved not only by industrial expansion but by communication.

The web of motorways and railways that have spread continuously across the country in the last thirty years are the life blood of the country. Equivalents of the MI, M2, M4 and M5 are built every year, in toto. The HS2 would take somewhere between three years between conception to completion.

Should any country want to be part of a modern world the people have to be able to move from one part to the other as quickly and easily as possible.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:22
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How many passengers want to travel non-stop between the Thames Estuary and Berwick?
How many want to travel quickly to/from Sheffield, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester or Bradford?

A basic conundrum that I see with High-Speed rail in a small island like England is the time required to stop/start at intermediate locations and the demand to service those intermediate destinations.
Express trains run between major destinations, stopping trains serve every station.
Express buses have the flexibility to stop 'on request' - something that is difficult with trains.

If you live outwith the major towns you need feeder services to linkup with the high-speed services - all of which adds time to your journey.

Of course this applies to an extent if you live some distance from a railway station.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:22
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
So you think HS2 will build and run itself then?



Well as not all of it needs or can be high speed we start with the main long distance routes that require a fast service and will continue to do so.
Feel free to explain the above to the people of South Wales..... and Swansea in particular.

As others have said, and with all due respect to Mr Mac, this is another perennial thread on JB, albeit one which actually generates a consensus of opinion, rare in itself, with the consensus being opposed to HS2.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:35
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Old photos of the motorways show only a few cars on them, maybe we should not have built them at the time? Imagine where we would be now?
That's correct. The demand for independent personal transport has multiplied several times since the 60's.
But what has this got to do with railways? It seems very unlikely that the requirement for rail transport will increase in the same way over the next half century.

As for electrified rail lines, how are we going to power them? We don't have anywhere near enough generating or network capacity for electric road vehicles, but they are apparently on the way. It would be sensible to use diesel locomotives until such time as their electricity supply is guaranteed.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:44
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I see the electrification of the Oxenholme - Windermere branch has been cancelled. Why in the name of blue blazes was this ever considered in the first place? Must be about 250th in the priority list of lines needing electrification.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:13
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
That's correct. The demand for independent personal transport has multiplied several times since the 60's.
But what has this got to do with railways? It seems very unlikely that the requirement for rail transport will increase in the same way over the next half century.

As for electrified rail lines, how are we going to power them? We don't have anywhere near enough generating or network capacity for electric road vehicles, but they are apparently on the way. It would be sensible to use diesel locomotives until such time as their electricity supply is guaranteed.


"It seems very unlikely that the requirement for rail transport...."
Have you seen the figures for rail passenger growth over the last five years?
From 2002/3 to 2014/15 passenger journeys increased by 69.5% (figures obtained from the Office for Road and Rail.)
The government needs to do something about the elektrickery power supply pretty pronto.
As for using diesel powered trains - or the bi-mode electric/diesel powered ones that have suddenly become flavour of the month - isn't the government telling us that diesel engined vehicles are the new work of the Devil?
Everyone said that no-one would use HS1 as a commuter route because of the (slightly) higher fares. Stand at St. Pancras South-Eastern Trains platforms at 08.30 in the morning and you'll see the trains are packed. Even off-peak they can be busy. As a previous poster has stated, early pictures of the M1 show a near deserted road. Suppose that it had been built as a dual carriageway which at the time would have sufficed. Now think HS2, it's the rail equivalent. The present West Coast line is the A1, HS2 is the M1.
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