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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

Old 5th May 2020, 16:57
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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And Capt K, how many gallons of dinosaur pee!!
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:28
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I'll leave you to work it out; you sound much more experienced than me !
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 07:36
  #83 (permalink)  
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https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ke...control-455697

Sir Keir Starmer committed to Jeremy Corbyn’s plans to bring railways into public control, says Jim McMahon

The new shadow Transport Secretary has dismissed suggestions that Labour could ditch its support for public ownership of the railways as he called for heavy spending on the national network to build Britain out of a post-coronavirus recession.

Jim McMahon, who was promoted to Labour’s top table by Sir Keir Starmer in April, also expressed passionate support for the troubled HS2 project – and called for it to be extended to Scotland.........

Despite growing criticism of HS2’s ballooning costs, Mr McMahon also restated Labour’s support for the rail scheme to connect London, the West Midlands, the North West and Yorkshire.

“It is not about a fast track, but about freeing up capacity on the rail network, getting freight off the road and onto rail, moving goods around the country in a cleaner, clearer way, and about connectivity, connecting the different parts of our country,” he argued.

“We should be building from Manchester and Leeds and working our way down as well as working our way up. And why aren’t we carrying on up to Scotland?”

He said: “In this role I have a chance to help drive HS2 and the Northern Powerhouse. What I’m keen to do is to make a difference and build on our manifesto position.”........
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 07:44
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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I have a chance to help drive HS2
The "hands on" approach to politics ...
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 00:19
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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And why aren’t we carrying on up to Scotland?”
There's not much room left in the Lune Gorge and over the hill and past Penrith for a new line, so what's the alternative?

How much extra capacity would be obtained by reinstating the Nantwich - Market Drayton - Wolverhampton line for freight, avoiding the two line stretch over Madely?
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 06:50
  #86 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...-hs2-qcsm20djv

Springwatch presenter Chris Packham wins right to hearing over HS2

The television presenter and naturalist Chris Packham has won a breakthrough in his campaign against HS2.

The Court of Appeal has decided to hear an application for a judicial review of the high-speed rail project. The presenter took legal action to stop what he called the “heinous and irreparable” destruction of ancient woodland along the route.

Packham’s application for a judicial review will be heard on July 8......

The appeal court decided on Friday to allow the Springwatch presenter’s application, with Lord Justice Lewison ruling that the matter was of “considerable public interest”......
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 12:35
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Sir Keir Starmer committed to Jeremy Corbyn’s plans to bring railways into public control, says Jim McMahon
Last time, they nationalised them because the money wasn't there to pay what they owed the railways sop the formed the British Transport Commission and made the railways buy themselves - as well preventing them competing with coastal shipping. This time, they have to find the cash elsewhere...
“It is not about a fast track, but about freeing up capacity on the rail network, getting freight off the road and onto rail, moving goods around the country in a cleaner, clearer way, and about connectivity, connecting the different parts of our country,” he argued.
So how does he propose to do that? Push up the cost of diesel? How about the increased costs of transferring from road to rail to road again? Or are they going to nationalise all the hauliers?

Cloud cuckoo land.....
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 13:37
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Which is cheapest, and which is most efficient?

1. To send truckload of products from the factory to the station. Offload to train. Send to another station. Offload to another truck. Send truck to customer.
2. Send truckload of products from the factory to the customer.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 11:08
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Which is cheapest, and which is most efficient?

1. To send truckload of products from the factory to the station. Offload to train. Send to another station. Offload to another truck. Send truck to customer.
2. Send truckload of products from the factory to the customer.
Railfreight is certainly not the most efficient when it comes to delivering packages; if it were then there would be garish red and yellow rail wagons with DHL plastered all over them running around the rail network at night. However rail comes into it's own moving bulk loads over longer distances, and especially moving containers from port to inland railheads. Environmentally and economically that's a no brainer (even more so were the freight network electrified), and if we had "proper" canals rather than the ons we were left with from the 19th century, then moving barges loaded with bulk and containers would be similarly efficent.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 11:19
  #90 (permalink)  
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Road and Rail Transportations Facts & Figures | Transport watch UK

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ort_system.pdf

Understanding the UK Freight Transport System
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 07:40
  #91 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ines-7nw9s7q9n

HS2 money-saving plan to run trains across Pennines

HS2 trains would link east and west across northern England under proposals for a fully integrated high-speed rail network.

New plans have been submitted to a government-backed review that envisage running HS2 services through a tunnel under Manchester before crossing the Pennines to Bradford, Leeds, York and Newcastle. It would combine the plans for HS2 with the proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail project, which is designed to improve intercity connections across the Pennines.

It could cut billions off the cost of HS2 by allowing the government to cancel or defer the eastern leg of the north-south line between Birmingham, the East Midlands and Leeds in favour of upgrading existing rail lines.......

Under present plans, HS2 will create a Y-shaped network linking London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. It is due for completion by 2040, seven years later than first intended. Northern Powerhouse Rail, sometimes called “HS3” or “Crossrail for the north”, will cost an estimated £39 billion and is due to link Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Bradford, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle with upgrades of existing railways as well as new lines.

The prime minister commissioned a review of both projects as part of a new “High Speed North” scheme that is being led by the National Infrastructure Commission. The architects Weston Williamson and Partners, which have worked on the Crossrail line through London, submitted plans to the review yesterday, urging the government to integrate both lines.

The proposal, drawn up with the engineering consultants Expedition, would involve scrapping plans to terminate HS2 trains at Manchester Piccadilly station.

HS2 is planning to tunnel into Manchester before building a high-speed rail terminus on the east side of Piccadilly station at ground level. Under the new plan, trains would run through HS2 tunnels into central Manchester but the high-speed station would be built beneath Piccadilly. It would be designed as a “through station”, with trains running on from the south to the northeast towards Bradford and Leeds. A new station could also be built close to junction 20 of the M62 to serve Rochdale and Oldham, regenerating the towns.

Building HS2 across the Pennines would give the government the option of scrapping the eastern leg of HS2 intended to run north of Birmingham via the East Midlands and Sheffield to Leeds, potentially saving billions. Instead the government could simply upgrade existing railway lines.

The group behind the new plan said: “A significant and widely acknowledged weakness of existing plans is that Manchester Piccadilly station would remain a terminus station for both HS2 and [Northern Powerhouse Rail] train services. This has the disadvantage of significantly slowing down journeys across Manchester.”

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Old 30th Jun 2020, 07:53
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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For my usual consultation fee, I can explain to the government how to save even more of the cost of HS2 - at least £100bn.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 08:24
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ines-7nw9s7q9n

HS2 money-saving plan to run trains across Pennines

HS2 trains would link east and west across northern England under proposals for a fully integrated high-speed rail network.

New plans have been submitted to a government-backed review that envisage running HS2 services through a tunnel under Manchester before crossing the Pennines to Bradford, Leeds, York and Newcastle. It would combine the plans for HS2 with the proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail project, which is designed to improve intercity connections across the Pennines.

It could cut billions off the cost of HS2 by allowing the government to cancel or defer the eastern leg of the north-south line between Birmingham, the East Midlands and Leeds in favour of upgrading existing rail lines.......

Under present plans, HS2 will create a Y-shaped network linking London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. It is due for completion by 2040, seven years later than first intended. Northern Powerhouse Rail, sometimes called “HS3” or “Crossrail for the north”, will cost an estimated £39 billion and is due to link Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Bradford, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle with upgrades of existing railways as well as new lines.

The prime minister commissioned a review of both projects as part of a new “High Speed North” scheme that is being led by the National Infrastructure Commission. The architects Weston Williamson and Partners, which have worked on the Crossrail line through London, submitted plans to the review yesterday, urging the government to integrate both lines.

The proposal, drawn up with the engineering consultants Expedition, would involve scrapping plans to terminate HS2 trains at Manchester Piccadilly station.

HS2 is planning to tunnel into Manchester before building a high-speed rail terminus on the east side of Piccadilly station at ground level. Under the new plan, trains would run through HS2 tunnels into central Manchester but the high-speed station would be built beneath Piccadilly. It would be designed as a “through station”, with trains running on from the south to the northeast towards Bradford and Leeds. A new station could also be built close to junction 20 of the M62 to serve Rochdale and Oldham, regenerating the towns.

Building HS2 across the Pennines would give the government the option of scrapping the eastern leg of HS2 intended to run north of Birmingham via the East Midlands and Sheffield to Leeds, potentially saving billions. Instead the government could simply upgrade existing railway lines.

The group behind the new plan said: “A significant and widely acknowledged weakness of existing plans is that Manchester Piccadilly station would remain a terminus station for both HS2 and [Northern Powerhouse Rail] train services. This has the disadvantage of significantly slowing down journeys across Manchester.”
That idea is fine and dandy, especially if it saves money and still gets connectivity to the north plus delivers a higher speed railway across the Pennines.

HOWEVER it would be unacceptable to people in the Midlands unless the Midlands Mainline between Sheffield / Nottingham / Derby and St Pancras is properly upgraded and fully electrified, AND there was a fast direct link between Nottingham and Birmingham. Currently the Nottingham / Birmingham route takes trains via Derby, with time being wasted on the dog leg route, plus nearly 10 minutes in Derby station. There is a freight line that could be upgraded between Sawley Junction and Burton upon Trent which could be upgraded, and even without an upgrade, during the improvement project at Derby last year trains from Nottingham to Birmingham used that freight line, trundling along at very sedate speeds, yet still arriving in Burton 10 minutes ahead of schedule.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 08:26
  #94 (permalink)  
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For my usual consultation fee, I can explain to the government how to save even more of the cost of HS2 - at least £100bn.
But you’d also have to produce shovel ready plans showing how they could spend the same amount on infrastructure in the same regions within the next 5 years in it’s place.....
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 08:51
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
But you’d also have to produce shovel ready plans showing how they could spend the same amount on infrastructure in the same regions within the next 5 years in it’s[sic] place.....
Your declared intention, then, is to spend a huge amount of money in 'the same regions' before the next election, in the hope of keeping those vital votes.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 08:57
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Your declared intention, then, is to spend a huge amount of money in 'the same regions' before the next election, in the hope of keeping those vital votes.
Why not? It would get lost in the C-19 bill and ensure 5 more years.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:30
  #97 (permalink)  
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I love the way that we just build a station underground in central Manchester, and then "set off towards Bradford and Leeds". Does nobody read maps these days ! There is a little bump in between known as the Pennies. The existing routes in that area route through Hebden Bridge (of flooding fame) and Huddersfield. I presume from the fact that they are looking to take the line close to Oldham and Rochdale that the plan is to go through the Calder Valley and Hebden Bridge which was the original trans Pennine route built by Stephenson. However that valley is very narrow with many curves hence why the other route through Huddersfield was built later.

The fact is that either route would be not acceptable to the large number of people who live on the route due to noise, this being a larger problem in the Calder Valley, as well as having significant engineering issues. Another option would be to go underground for a greater distance like the Gothard Base Tunnel project in Switzerland however then the savings would disappear very quickly, as tunnel length would be more in the 15-20 mile range.

My idea to use that money in the north would be to scrap the routes north of Birmingham, re open some of the closed trans-pennine routes which have been closed, and increase length of trains, and maybe introduce a dedicated cross northern freight route, you know like the one we had at Woodhead until 1983 I think. Hey presto more paths for freight better connectivity between northern cities at the level they need, not some grandiose London centrist train set extension and probably delv it all at 1/2 the cost of the BJ scheme. But I am only an engineer from a Red Brick Univ not a classics graduate from one of the two holy grail,s of academia who writes a poor column in the Telegraph to keep his hand in on the side.
Cheers
Mr Mac
PS Who do I send my consultancy bill to ?
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 14:48
  #98 (permalink)  
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The estimated cost of the Northern Powerhouse Rail part of the line is estimated at £39B.......

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/northern...en-cost-397936

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_North

http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/R05%201...20Strategy.pdf
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 20:21
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That reminds me of maps given to British imperial general,s, who were then extolled to get on with pacifying what ever tribe or country with no reference to the climate or topography who subsequently came unstuck. I will watch with interest as the circus unravels and costs spiral.
Kind regards
Mr Mac
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 20:39
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Has Central Office worked out how much per vote that comes to?
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