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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

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The Train Set HS2 and the rest

Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:25
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
I see the electrification of the Oxenholme - Windermere branch has been cancelled. Why in the name of blue blazes was this ever considered in the first place? Must be about 250th in the priority list of lines needing electrification.

To link it in with the electrified mail line. You don't have to have a separate servicing and fuelling depot for a diesel train trundling up and down the branch. The diesel trains that trot along the coast from Brighton to Ashford have to come up to Norwood in south London for fuel and servicing.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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As pointed out earlier, it's not about knocking 20 minutes off the Birmingham to London time, as the Guardian and Independent like to bang on about, it's about capacity and future proofing.
Someone suggested upgrading existing lines, remember the LNW debacle of a few years ago?
Just about ever developed country is building new railways, but not the U.K.
A new railway would be totally fenced in, have no level crossings, have robust over and over bridges etc.
If trespassers are seen lineside, then trains have to be stopped and cautioned. The same with crossing gates being left open, crossing phones not working, signs missing at a crossing, bridges being struck by road vehicles.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:36
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Redhill Phil - noting your location, with all this talk of High Speed Trains serving our fellow citizens in the South East and "up North", does it irk you that the fastest train from Penzance to London takes 4 hours 55 minutes, an average speed of less than 60 mph for the journey?

We are certainly the most neglected region down here when it comes to transport links, and I sometimes wonder whether the railways are just waiting for expensive cracks to appear in the Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash to give them the excuse to shut down rail services in Cornwall altogether.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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direct ?

York and then EMA direct to LON, via BHX.............??
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 10:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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TTN, I agree entirely. And with the decision not to electrify some of those lines I am wondering if the new bi-mode Class 802s meant for the GWR main line will be diverted to run on them instead and we'll be stuck with the HST for another couple of decades.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 11:27
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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An American was crossing the desert in his jeep and came across an Arab walking across the sand.

On being asked where he was going the Arab replied "Murzug", when asked how long it would take him to get there the Arab replied "Five days".

The American offered him a lift in his jeep saying to the Arab that he could get him to Murzug in one day.

"What am I going to do for the other four days?" replied the Arab.

FF
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 11:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
Redhill Phil - noting your location, with all this talk of High Speed Trains serving our fellow citizens in the South East and "up North", does it irk you that the fastest train from Penzance to London takes 4 hours 55 minutes, an average speed of less than 60 mph for the journey?

We are certainly the most neglected region down here when it comes to transport links, and I sometimes wonder whether the railways are just waiting for expensive cracks to appear in the Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash to give them the excuse to shut down rail services in Cornwall altogether.

It sure does. We had a pair of those sooper-dooper bi-mode jobbies visit PZ a couple of weeks ago with GWR representatives all smiles and suits - and no photography allowed within the train. They changed the subject when I pointed out to them that the ones that were brought down for us grateful plebs to drool over weren't the actual types that we are getting, we're getting the standard model rather than the de-luxe one. I don't think that the Saltash bridge will develop cracks, Isambard tended to over-engineer stuff.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 11:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RedhillPhil View Post
"It seems very unlikely that the requirement for rail transport...."
Have you seen the figures for rail passenger growth over the last five years?
From 2002/3 to 2014/15 passenger journeys increased by 69.5% (figures obtained from the Office for Road and Rail.)
The government needs to do something about the elektrickery power supply pretty pronto.
As for using diesel powered trains - or the bi-mode electric/diesel powered ones that have suddenly become flavour of the month - isn't the government telling us that diesel engined vehicles are the new work of the Devil?
Everyone said that no-one would use HS1 as a commuter route because of the (slightly) higher fares. Stand at St. Pancras South-Eastern Trains platforms at 08.30 in the morning and you'll see the trains are packed. Even off-peak they can be busy. As a previous poster has stated, early pictures of the M1 show a near deserted road. Suppose that it had been built as a dual carriageway which at the time would have sufficed. Now think HS2, it's the rail equivalent. The present West Coast line is the A1, HS2 is the M1.
It's good to hear that rail traffic has increased recently, however I don't think even you would suggest that there is an unmet demand for fixed point-to-point movement on the same scale as road traffic has expanded. If Beeching hadn't slashed the local feeder lines it might have been different. Who are all these people who will give up their cars to travel on a train? It's often cheaper for one person to travel by car than train. With a family it's a no-brainer. Nowadays people want to get from door to door with their personal goods and not queue for a taxi at the station.

Commuting must surely have reached a plateau by now, with remote working a fully practical solution.

As for the regulation of diesel engines, that seems to be highly selective:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...mpaigners-warn
Yes, I know that's the Guardian, but there are plenty of other links on that one.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:51
  #29 (permalink)  
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with remote working a fully practical solution
Well, it ought to be, but so far it seems to have had as much effect on travelling as the "Paperless Office" has had on paper usage.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 14:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps if we hadn't priced people out of easily buying homes people could afford to move nearer to where they work rather than wasting time, money and scarce resources commuting back and forth...?
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 14:58
  #31 (permalink)  
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Well sat here at King Cross waiting to head back North and my post seems to have stirred the pot a little. I did not realise this had been debated before on here so sorry for that. As for the views raised they seem to be rather evenly balanced which to be honest surprised me a little. My own view is that more could be done with the existing by putting back some of the track that was ripped out during 60s and 70s and opening up the redundant Great Central route for freight. The critical thing in the UK is the country to be honest is a little small for High Speed rail and the areas that are furthest away will not be connected, and will still use air transport. Most of the route I take home this evening was four track at one time and coped with passenger and far more freight than we have today in fact that latter market is now decreasing according to what I have both read and seen so there should be more paths coming available if both were done. It is noticable that the Dutch have one high speed rail line and plan to build no more currently. Living in the north and seeing freinds having to commute on antiquated trians which are vastly overloaded, even compared with those in the SE, makes me beleive that the money would be better spent on these up grades rather than the more flashy HS2. However a few more carriages a bit of electrification and some more track is not quite so glamerouse regardless of the fact that it would do the job. Also I would suggest that given this countries possible finacial state which may or not be up coming - Brexit, it maybe better to hold off such huge capex which is obviously not a vote winner with everyone. Anyway time for Virgin trains dinner - must say I preferred GNER !


Regards
Mr Mac
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 16:09
  #32 (permalink)  
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Papajuliet
Sorry I should point out I do not commute on East Coast, I just use it for going to London meetings and projects, and also used to use it to go to the office. However home office is now DXB so spend a few days out their each month, and European office is now moving to Munich, so there at other times, and the rest of the time either overseas, or working from home, which brings me onto the joys or not of e-mail connectivity in the provinces , which is another hobby horse altogether !


Anyway a good weekend to all.


Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 16:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
Well sat here at King Cross waiting to head back North and my post seems to have stirred the pot a little. I did not realise this had been debated before on here so sorry for that. As for the views raised they seem to be rather evenly balanced which to be honest surprised me a little. My own view is that more could be done with the existing by putting back some of the track that was ripped out during 60s and 70s and opening up the redundant Great Central route for freight. The critical thing in the UK is the country to be honest is a little small for High Speed rail and the areas that are furthest away will not be connected, and will still use air transport. Most of the route I take home this evening was four track at one time and coped with passenger and far more freight than we have today in fact that latter market is now decreasing according to what I have both read and seen so there should be more paths coming available if both were done. It is noticable that the Dutch have one high speed rail line and plan to build no more currently. Living in the north and seeing freinds having to commute on antiquated trians which are vastly overloaded, even compared with those in the SE, makes me beleive that the money would be better spent on these up grades rather than the more flashy HS2. However a few more carriages a bit of electrification and some more track is not quite so glamerouse regardless of the fact that it would do the job. Also I would suggest that given this countries possible finacial state which may or not be up coming - Brexit, it maybe better to hold off such huge capex which is obviously not a vote winner with everyone. Anyway time for Virgin trains dinner - must say I preferred GNER !


Regards
Mr Mac
Aaaagh, that blasted Great Central route again. The "London Extension" to give it it's proper name cannot be used again. It's completely built over in Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield. A large lump of the route north of Leicester is owned by a rail preservation society, another one owns trackwork north of Nottingham. It's simply a no go.
When you leave Kings Cross to head north you'll be on the quadrupled in the 1950s track between Wood Green and Potters Bar, you'll go over the eased curves through Hatfield, Under the flying Cambridge junction at Hitchin, over the eased curves at Offord, over the now quadrupled line through Huntingdon and (possibly) at the 105mph linespeed through Peterborough where all trains used to be subject to the 20 mpg restriction through the station. All of those improvements are in the first 77 miles.
There's only so much you can do with the existing Victorian age infrastructure before it becomes financially sensible to start again.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 17:10
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I totally agree with Sally. I've asked this question several times and nobody ever has a realistic answer. Where's the electricity coming from? How many Giga Watts is needed for the Electrification to Bristol and Cardiff? What with the starting demand and maybe 7MW at full whack - plus all the auxiliaries such as heating and A/C and lighting, plus traction accessories such as brake pumps, with careful timetabling you might avoid having too many trains starting at once. That's with what we have to day. Add HS2 and that's another load of power needed, besides control offices, signalling and so on.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 18:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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The reason we have HS2 is because the EU mandated its member states to open certain high-speed rail links across its length and width. As usual, it was unconcerned about us being an island - we merely had to conform to what is an essentially continental system.
If we were operating as an independent sovereign country we would first address the eleven identified pinch-points on the network, and spend the rest of the 50,000,000,000+ on something useful.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 23:12
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RedhillPhil View Post
Have you seen the figures for rail passenger growth over the last five years?
From 2002/3 to 2014/15 passenger journeys increased by 69.5% (figures obtained from the Office for Road and Rail.)
There were probably a lot of horses sold in 1930, too.

Telpresense and local manufacturing are about to kill travel. If the British government decided to begin a major new rail line today, it would be obsolete by the time they could lay the first sleeper after fighting through years of bureaucracy.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 09:27
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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All this talk of new rail lines for increased traffic.
I hear that canal boating is becoming increasingly popular. Perhaps we should start digging some new canals?
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 10:42
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
All this talk of new rail lines for increased traffic.
I hear that canal boating is becoming increasingly popular. Perhaps we should start digging some new canals?

They were very energy efficient. One horse - or more commonly a mule - could move thirty tons. I like canals, I was born thirty yards from the Chesterfield canal.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 10:48
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by uffington sb View Post
As pointed out earlier, it's not about knocking 20 minutes off the Birmingham to London time, as the Guardian and Independent like to bang on about, it's about capacity and future proofing.
Someone suggested upgrading existing lines, remember the LNW debacle of a few years ago?
Just about ever developed country is building new railways, but not the U.K.
A new railway would be totally fenced in, have no level crossings, have robust over and over bridges etc.
If trespassers are seen lineside, then trains have to be stopped and cautioned. The same with crossing gates being left open, crossing phones not working, signs missing at a crossing, bridges being struck by road vehicles.

Totally unnecessary railway, invest a fraction of the money in up grades where required. HS2 is simply a politicians vanity project.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 11:51
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Concur with Planemike totally. All these billions to be spent on what, a time saving of half an hour. How about the south east here in Hastings having some new infrastrucure. For eg: Hastings to Southampton by rail, almost four hours and up to three changes of train. Or try driving the same route along mostly single carriage roads for half the distance. At least the A21 will soon be completed. Grrrrrr.
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