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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:47
  #18201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Golf-Sierra View Post
Rob, we started out talking about Saudis getting EU subsidies for horse pastures. Now a lot of countries in the EU (Germany, France, Poland to name the ones I manged to look up) have restrictions in place on the sale of agricultural land to non nationals - including within the EU.
I think you need to revisit that.

In Europe, no law prohibits foreign citizens from buying property but certain countries have put limitations on this right, often with regards to residency rights, property type or buyer category. For example, only residents can buy real estate in Iceland and Liechtenstein. In Andorra, Hungary, Denmark, Poland and Malta, foreign investors can only buy property after receiving approval from the local authorities.

Nevertheless, most major European countries (e.g., France, Germany, Italy, Spain and UK) allow overseas investors to buy residential and commercial real estate with the same rights as local citizens.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:52
  #18202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by virginblue View Post
Well, if you get your financial wisdom from the trusted Daily Mail, I suppose you invest in scratchcards and shares in coal mines. Anyway, did the FT misquote Boris Johnson or not with this:

“ . . . once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week. It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS . . .”
Well I'm not sure what this obsession of yours with the Daily Mail is, perhaps they killed your Dog?

Getting back to Boris though - now that you have finally discovered what he actually said can you point out which part is a lie as you have claimed?


So to shed some light into that - can you please confirm BoJo's statement that each week 350m GBP are wired to Brussels?
Where did Boris claim that?. The rebate is subtracted before any funds are despatched.


What the UK actually gets control of if you start at the real contribution, deduct the rebate and deduct the subsidies the government has promised to continue paying after Brext, is significantly less than half of what BoJo has been writing about.
No it isn't. £350 million is our current gross contribution - once we leave we get control of how that contribution is spent.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:55
  #18203 (permalink)  
 
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What we pay is all explained in the link I provided above.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:56
  #18204 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly my point. The EU is quite flexible on the issue. It was entirely your choice to allow foreign buyers to skyrocket the price of property in London and other cities. Please don't deny that contributed to the 'cost of living crisis'.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:57
  #18205 (permalink)  
 
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You mean if go to a shop and pay the cashier 100 GBP for a pair shoes as a result of a rebate from the sticker price of 130 GBP, you seriously believe that you paid 130 GBP - and if you don't buy that pair of shoes that you are 130 GBP better off? To test that theory, I suggest you buy that pair of shoes for 100 GBP, return it the next day and try to figure out if you get 100 GBP or 130 GBP back. BoJo apparently believes he would get 130 GBP back.

God help us all if the UK government runs on that kind of logic
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:01
  #18206 (permalink)  
 
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It is all explained in the link I provided and is quite clear what is paid and how, and virginblue I believe your analogy is not valid, or relevant to the debate.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:04
  #18207 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry Rob Jacob Rees-Mogg has killed his chances like The Lib Dem Leader did on controversial religious beliefs
Actually I never mentioned Rees-Mogg but since you did lets have a look at what he actually said.
Addressing his views, Morgan said: "Say if you were PM and a woman is raped by a family member, you would say she had absolutely no right to have that baby aborted?"
To which Rees-Mogg responded: "No she would have a right under UK law." But you wouldn’t agree with that right?" Morgan asked.The MP said the "law is not going to change"
So there you go, a politician who does not hide his views and speaks the truth, he also said that they were HIS views and the law was not going to change, he isnt campaigning to remove those rights mearly expressing his view which he can do in a free country. Farron got fired because he couldnt tell the truth.

The answer is of course Yes - it is a democratic representative system with a biased representation. I can give you countless examples of countries universally regarded as democratic which have similar systems but perhaps it will be best to agree to disagree on this one.

But we do disagree and thats why the UK is leaving the EU.

Rob, I generally prefer to discuss verifiable facts rather than out of context quotes which inevitably suffer from various losses in translation. I'll try to find a draft of the proposed legislation and then I'll let you know what I think about the specific proposal on the table.
In that case GS I suggest you read the full transcript as put out by the EU, please find a copy below. Now if you are saying the EU cannot translate the Presidents own speech what chance do we have?

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - PRESIDENT JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER'S State of the Union Address 2017

I do think though that there is a worrying pattern that politicians who are excluded from national politics (e.g. Farage, Korwin-Mikke, le Pen) manage to get into the EUP through promoting anti EU ideas and then use the publicity and funds to springboard their cause and careers. It's somehow not right and works against the interests of both the EU and the individual countries. I think you said yourself it would have been better for both sides if you hadn't joined the EU or left ages ago - well shame that NF wasn't a larger part of your mainstream politics earlier.
Oh come on GS Farage is not excluded from National politics and Le Pen came second in the French elections but maybe you should look at the EU commissioners and Presidents, 99% of whom are failed politicians. Wasnt Junker kicked out of office for some shady dealings? Looking nearer to home Mendleson was kicked out of the Govt twice, Why do you think failed politcians are any better?

As for the NF, sorry you are talking about a racist fringe party who have had no impact on Britsh politics for the last 50 years.

I absolutely reject any form of censorship but perhaps the EU can employ the same or similar measures which kept NF out of Westminster to keep him out of the EU parliament? Would you consider that as democratic or undemocratic
?

No measures kept the NF out of Westminster, the people saw them for what they where and refused to vote for them, they were never banned and indeed still exist, just like the BNP. But you miss the point, WHO decides what parties can and cannot run for office in the EU? Isnt that what the Soviets did?

Rob, we started out talking about Saudis getting EU subsidies for horse pastures. Now a lot of countries in the EU (Germany, France, Poland to name the ones I manged to look up) have restrictions in place on the sale of agricultural land to non nationals - including within the EU.
Actually if you go back and look GS I was replying to a comment about French people living in the UK.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:06
  #18208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by virginblue View Post
You mean if go to a shop and pay the cashier 100 GBP for a pair shoes as a result of a rebate from the sticker price of 130 GBP, you seriously believe that you paid 130 GBP - and if you don't buy that pair of shoes that you are 130 GBP better off? To test that theory, I suggest you buy that pair of shoes for 100 GBP, return it the next day and try to figure out if you get 100 GBP or 130 GBP back. BoJo apparently believes he would get 130 GBP back.

God help us all if the UK government runs on that kind of logic
You dont understand how the rebate works.


The money we get back in the rebate isn't all ours to do with as we wish. For example say we get £100 million from the EU Solidarity Fund to compensate for a natural disaster, £66 Million of that comes out of our rebate for the year. Our 'rebate' is not under our control - which it will be when we leave. So the £350 million figure is the correct one to use.

So perhaps if you understood how the system worked you might understand what Boris is talking about?
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:08
  #18209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Golf-Sierra View Post
Exactly my point. The EU is quite flexible on the issue. It was entirely your choice to allow foreign buyers to skyrocket the price of property in London and other cities. Please don't deny that contributed to the 'cost of living crisis'.
But you still havent said what country you live in that restricts property ownership by foreign nationals.

You say that we shouldn't allow foreigners to buy property but as far as I can see nobody in the EU does that.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:11
  #18210 (permalink)  
 
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And if he reads the link provided he would see who was right or wrong, but that is probably to easy.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:22
  #18211 (permalink)  
 
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Also the rebate is paid one year in arrears
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:26
  #18212 (permalink)  
 
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The only useful benchmark in this context is whether or not government can spend an additional 350m quid each week as a result of Brexit.

For starters, the weekly contribution is 326m GBP, not 350m GBP. Now, as to the rebate, for every 3 GBP subsidies paid by the EU in the UK the UK government currently has to invest 2 GBP. After Brexit, it will be 3 GBP. As government has pledged to continue paying subsidies to farmers, this will, simple maths, cost more (same applies to other areas as well, of course). This effectively reduces the money that can be spent - on whatever - from 326m GBP to a significantly lower amount (approx. 170m). If subsidies are taken away from farming, science etc. altogether, 326m GBP are doable - minus the costs for a couple of hundred thousands folks joining benefits avenue, of course. It is open to anyone's guess how likely it will be that the farming industry or science will no longer get subsidies so that money tied there will be freed up for the NHS or whatever else.

Or as a wiser man has said, Paul Johnson from the Institute of Fiscal Studies: "The £350m comes if you assume essentially that the EU would continue to pay us a rebate after we've stopped paying them. It makes no sense whatsoever."
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:26
  #18213 (permalink)  
 
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Each year the UK gets an instant discount on its contributions to the EU—the ‘rebate’—worth almost £4 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £17 billion in contributions.

The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £17 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away, so the UK never contributes this much.

The UK’s contributions to the budget vary from year to year. They’ve been larger recently than in previous decades.
From link, which does not appear to mention the rebate in arrears.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:27
  #18214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
That's the whole point! She should be making the offer, whatever it is, at the meeting where it can be discussed privately and perhaps brought to a satisfactory conclusion.
Making an offer in a heavily advertised public speech is no way to deal with such a vitally important issue.

It will of course be rejected by the EU. Perhaps that is her intention?
I expect the plan is to appeal directly to the people of the EU rather than the 'Eurocrats in Brussels'. She's probably humming "Don't cry for me Argentina" as she prepares.

It could work but quite risky. Firstly - will anyone even be bothered by her speech? Brexit isn't such a big deal on this side. Secondly - I'm not sure the people in the core EU share this British perception of 'Eurocrats in an Ivory Tower out of touch with reality'. It may go down as somewhat offensive.

I am not sure, let's wait and hear what she has to say. The 30bln - if it is net net, i.e. @ around 150 mln per week works out to be almost 4 years worth of contributions. Seems reasonable but you'll probably need to throw in a bit more to take account for the pensions of UK eu civil servants. On the future immigration arrangement just don't distinguish between the skilled vs unskilled, 2 vs 4 years visas what's the point? Irish border - I mean who cares but Ireland can veto it so work it out with them. Maybe some arrangement to get NI into EFTA?
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:30
  #18215 (permalink)  
 
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£350 million a week doesn’t include the rebate but uses better figures

It’s also been claimed that we send £350 million a week to the EU. That also misses out the rebate, although is based on better figures for the UK’s contributions.

£350 million is what we would pay to the EU budget, without the rebate.
Again from the link, so where did your figures come from, it would be handy if you have a link to support your figures and from who, as they appear to differ from the one I provided.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:40
  #18216 (permalink)  
 
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The only useful benchmark in this context is whether or not government can spend an additional 350m quid each week as a result of Brexit.
No you still dont get it, what matters is who decides WHERE to spend the money, us or the EU. Its like you giving me £350 a week, I keep £200 but then because Im generous give you £50 back and then say heres another £100 but you can only sppend it on what I say you can. Dont forget you only get that £50 after I have had it sitting in my bank for 12 months as well.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:41
  #18217 (permalink)  
 
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From link, which does not appear to mention the rebate in arrears.
I didnt know about that until today when IDS was being grilled on the Daily politics show.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:52
  #18218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
No measures kept the NF out of Westminster, the people saw them for what they where and refused to vote for them, they were never banned and indeed still exist, just like the BNP. But you miss the point, WHO decides what parties can and cannot run for office in the EU? Isnt that what the Soviets did?
Rob, please.

In 2015 UKIP got 3881099 votes - 12.6% of the popular vote. And that translated into 1/650 MPs. i.e. 0.2%. Very similar for the Green Party. I mean they got a quarter of the vote of UKIP but still have one MP.

In 2005 it was almost a million votes for UKIP. Yet 0% of the MPs.

Is this democracy by your definition?
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:59
  #18219 (permalink)  
 
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The facts behind the £350m per week EU membership claim

If this is to believed it works out at £8.4 billion a year

Hence my guess is the £30 billion will be paid at £10 billion a year over the 3 years transition period basically buying our access while paying the debt

Of course Boris Johnson's claim was not just factually incorrect but deception
The claim had an influence on voters and some say that he should have criminal proceedings brought against him

It was that threat of criminal proceedings as the guy is trying to promote himself as the next PM which probably caused him trying to wriggle out of this black mark of dishonesty against his character

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 21:00
  #18220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
No you still dont get it, what matters is who decides WHERE to spend the money, us or the EU. Its like you giving me £350 a week, I keep £200 but then because Im generous give you £50 back and then say heres another £100 but you can only sppend it on what I say you can. Dont forget you only get that £50 after I have had it sitting in my bank for 12 months as well.
You seem to assume that all the money is currently spent on rubbish and will be spent elsewhere after Brexit. In the real world, that is not going to happen. If it gives you a happy feeling that the farmers and scientists will get their subsidies based on a decision rubberstamped in Westminster and not in Brussels, so be it. Some of the rules on subsidies will probably be slightly changed, but the end result will not be that tons of money will become available for spending in areas which at the moment receive nothing and other areas which rely on EU-subsidies will simply disappear.
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