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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Old 7th Sep 2017, 07:35
  #17461 (permalink)  
 
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Brexit: Labour Conference Braced For Showdown As Corbyn Supporters Back EU Freedom Of Movement - HuffPost UK
https://apple.news/Ah_H0kLCASfW1tEGxrZcyHA

Krystal

So beneficial that Labour will now make FOM part of their policy encouraging EU citizens here
Contrast that to Mays nasty anti European leaked document and no wonder the EU are not friendly to her

She did a lousy job as HS I cannot work out who the real Theresa May is or what she stands for ?

A few points it's not clever to adjust wage levels by limiting supply that doesn't increase quality only cost to the end user
Far better to increase quality and wage level by demanding training and qualifications
If the building industry can employ anyone who can roughly wield a paintbrush better to insist that painter has a qualification in painting

We have roughly 1.4 million unemployed! How many of those would you want to employ ?
We have 3.2 million EU citizens send them all back ? Do the sums
Jobs for the Brits ? Exactly who are the Brits as EU citizens are as much the Brits as the vast numbers who we classify as the Brits from the remainder of the world

Last edited by Pace; 7th Sep 2017 at 07:46.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 07:37
  #17462 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Indeed. I mean, who else would be willing to cram themselves into a multi-person room share in London to ensure Polly and her ilk could get quick service from someone willing to work in central London at Pret A Manger on minimum wage?
ORAC....do you have any theatrical aspirations I wonder ?

I only ask because the above can only be defined as what, I believe, in thespian circles, is referred to as "shamelessly playing to the gallery "...

The supporting cast will, I'm sure, be along to garland the stage in flowers and add their cacophony of clapping hands, to your virtuoso performance.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:09
  #17463 (permalink)  
 
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I was a very reluctant "Leave" voter. During my long period of thinking about it, immigration played no part in my decision process. In fact, I gave it no thought at all. I would have preferred to stay in what used to be the old EEC but what swung it for me was what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be the constantly dictatorial attitude of the various EU governing bodies. Now I am seeing confirmation that I made the right choice when I read today's nonsense from M. Barnier in which he is set to try to lay down rules governing how Northern Ireland is governed, post-Brexit.
Northern Ireland 'should have different Brexit deal' - EU - BBC News
Dear M. Barnier, my country is named "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". NOT "The EU, Northern Ireland section". Does the UK interfere with differences between the Belgian Walloons and the Flemish part of that country? Or the Spain/Catalonia squabbles? Or the animosity between the Czech Republic and Slovakia? And no doubt many other examples. I think the Irish should be told to get used to the fact that, post-Brexit, anyone travelling north from Dublin will be leaving the EU and, if they want to reenter the EU at a French port, having travelled by road across mainland UK, they will have to go through the same rigmarole as anybody else entering the EU from outside the region. The EU's idiotic posturing re Irish borders is symptomatic of the reasin I finally decided to vote "Leave".
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:22
  #17464 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
I was a very reluctant "Leave" voter. During my long period of thinking about it, immigration played no part in my decision process. In fact, I gave it no thought at all. I would have preferred to stay in what used to be the old EEC but what swung it for me was what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be the constantly dictatorial attitude of the various EU governing bodies. Now I am seeing confirmation that I made the right choice when I read today's nonsense from M. Barnier in which he is set to try to lay down rules governing how Northern Ireland is governed, post-Brexit.
Northern Ireland 'should have different Brexit deal' - EU - BBC News
Dear M. Barnier, my country is named "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". NOT "The EU, Northern Ireland section". Does the UK interfere with differences between the Belgian Walloons and the Flemish part of that country? Or the Spain/Catalonia squabbles? Or the animosity between the Czech Republic and Slovakia? And no doubt many other examples. I think the Irish should be told to get used to the fact that, post-Brexit, anyone travelling north from Dublin will be leaving the EU and, if they want to reenter the EU at a French port, having travelled by road across mainland UK, they will have to go through the same rigmarole as anybody else entering the EU from outside the region. The EU's idiotic posturing re Irish borders is symptomatic of the reasin I finally decided to vote "Leave".
The EU Commission position paper on the NI / Eire relationship appears to be trying to unite Ireland through the back door.

That is as bigger non starter and work of fantasy as some of the UK's much criticised proposals.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:32
  #17465 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
I was a very reluctant "Leave" voter. During my long period of thinking about it, immigration played no part in my decision process. In fact, I gave it no thought at all. I would have preferred to stay in what used to be the old EEC but what swung it for me was what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be the constantly dictatorial attitude of the various EU governing bodies. Now I am seeing confirmation that I made the right choice when I read today's nonsense from M. Barnier in which he is set to try to lay down rules governing how Northern Ireland is governed, post-Brexit.
Northern Ireland 'should have different Brexit deal' - EU - BBC News
Dear M. Barnier, my country is named "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". NOT "The EU, Northern Ireland section". Does the UK interfere with differences between the Belgian Walloons and the Flemish part of that country? Or the Spain/Catalonia squabbles? Or the animosity between the Czech Republic and Slovakia? And no doubt many other examples. I think the Irish should be told to get used to the fact that, post-Brexit, anyone travelling north from Dublin will be leaving the EU and, if they want to reenter the EU at a French port, having travelled by road across mainland UK, they will have to go through the same rigmarole as anybody else entering the EU from outside the region. The EU's idiotic posturing re Irish borders is symptomatic of the reasin I finally decided to vote "Leave".
Interesting.
You quite rightly say that M.Barnier should not interfere in the future of Northern Ireland, but you think it's acceptable to interfere with the Irish Republic by saying that "the Irish should be told..."
As they are the innocent party in all of this, and a valued trading partner, I would suggest they deserve more consideration.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:32
  #17466 (permalink)  
 
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Like you, Kelvin, I wasn't sure when this started. What did it for me was the EU's treatment of DC in his "negotiations" for a better deal for the UK, its subsequent cave-in to the Turks over the migrant crisis and the Islamic invasion of Europe (because that's what it is). EU immigration wasn't an issue for me as I have worked with and been served by many workers from other EU countries; I generally appreciate them and see those who would like to stay as a welcome addition to the UK gene-pool. In my experience they work hard, try to fit in and generally adhere to traditional values more strongly than we do. I hope they don't "go native" on us, that is adopt the worst characteristics of the modern British.

Also like you I'm becoming increasingly irritated by EU interference in the relationship between the UK and the RoI. It predates both countries membership of the EU and it's therefore a matter for US, not the EU. It will probably be fixed anyway as Ireland slowly realises that its place is in the Anglo-sphere alongside the UK, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ et al and moves towards Irexit as looks increasingly likely.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:44
  #17467 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
I dont understand the left here, surely the oversupply of Labour keeps both wages and productivity down. It also means less training places for UK workers with firms just hoovering up tradespeople from avross the EU. I know of lots of engineering companies who have done this. Companies that used to have apprentices and the like now dont bother.
It bemuses the absolute **** out of me as well. Supposed SJW's on the Left in support of FOM, a system which has simply enabled employers to pay peanuts to their workforce safe in the knowledge that there is an endless supply of low wage low skill EU economic migrants coming in on a daily basis.

Still it does rather confirm the notion that pocket content is a red line for many.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:49
  #17468 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Interesting.
You quite rightly say that M.Barnier should not interfere in the future of Northern Ireland, but you think it's acceptable to interfere with the Irish Republic by saying that "the Irish should be told..."
As they are the innocent party in all of this, and a valued trading partner, I would suggest they deserve more consideration.
From the UK's perspective they are and will continue to deserve more consideration and anything that upsets that particular apple cart will have been driven entirely by the EU.

Yes I 100% agree if we had not voted Brexit this would not even be a consideration however the EU do not HAVE to make this particular issue difficult but we both know they probably will.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:53
  #17469 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann1234:
"the Irish should be told..."
On reflection, I agree with your sentiment. I should perhaps have phrased it differently, substituting "EU" for Ireland.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:56
  #17470 (permalink)  
 
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Still it does rather confirm the notion that pocket content is a red line for many.
Of course it does; we live in a "capitalist" society and I think that sums it up.

For many remainers their financial wellbeing certainly have been an important factor, and similarly for many brexiteers, although migration was the issue, in their view those migrants are taking their jobs and they feel their pocket may be positively effected by leaving the EU and by implication slashing immigration.

Money talks either way - "it's the economy, stupid"
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 08:57
  #17471 (permalink)  
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ORAC....do you have any theatrical aspirations I wonder ?
Alas KnC, I lack your orotund and prolix nature.....
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:02
  #17472 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
A good point:

“The question, currently unanswered, is whether workers other than the highly skilled will still want to come to the UK on the basis there’s no family reunion, no pathway to ever settling here, and where their stay is limited to two years.”
I know a few people who came in to work unskilled and started out by placing produce on shelves in supermarkets or babysitting, managed to save up enough money to afford higher education - in London and usually a second degree - and are now working in healthcare, banks, engineering. Yes, I'm sure among the +- 2 million they few and far between but these are the people you will also be shutting out.

GS
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:07
  #17473 (permalink)  
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Perhaps wiser to recruit worldwide from amongst those who already have such qualifications, rather than hope to recruit the vanishingly small percentage which acquire them after their arrival?
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:13
  #17474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Perhaps wiser to recruit worldwide from amongst those who already have such qualifications, rather than hope to recruit the vanishingly small percentage which acquire them after their arrival?
Which is precisely why virtually every other country in the world administers their immigration needs in that way.

Over 17000 posts, almost 900 pages and still not one single poster has put a valid reason as to why FOM is a good thing.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:22
  #17475 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Perhaps wiser to recruit worldwide from amongst those who already have such qualifications, rather than hope to recruit the vanishingly small percentage which acquire them after their arrival?
Perhaps.

Just making the point that people who arrive low skilled often have enormous potential.

I mean generally I think anyone who has the courage to pack up, move to a different country, master a new language, get a job there - even the unskilled ones - are the quite clever and resourceful people. That's why I think you will find that the people up north or on for example the Isle of Wight - who were not doing too well and were all in favour of Brexit - will not just simply pack up and start making lattes in London and not that much will change for them.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:23
  #17476 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps wiser to recruit worldwide from amongst those who already have such qualifications, rather than hope to recruit the vanishingly small percentage which acquire them after their
I would have thought it was wiser to recruit and positively favour your biggest and closest market not treat them the same as from countries where your trade is peanuts in comparison
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:25
  #17477 (permalink)  
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Strange that the EU is getting upset at the UK intending to implement exactly the same rules they enforce on those outside the EU who want to work in Europe - and presumably will also enforce upon British citizens?

"How to get a work permit in Europe

Posted on 23 March, 2012 by Harmen Rijks
We keep on getting the same question over and over again:

What does it cost to get a work permit in Europe and how long will it take to get one?

The answer is simple:

YOU can NOT get a work permit.

An employer will have to get one on your behalf and this will not cost you anything.

European law stipulates that the employer must file for a work permit on behalf of the non-European employee the company wants to hire.

So, how do you get an employer to get a work permit for you?

With great difficulty.

An employer will have to prove to the government that they can not find anyone in Europe to fill the vacancy. Remember that there are millions of well educated, unemployed people in Europe, so this will be a very hard case to prove. If you’re an unskilled labourer you have absolutely no chance. Only in industries where there is a shortage of staff you will be able to find employers willing to fill in the necessary paperwork.

Most employer won’t even contemplate trying to get a work permit as the red tape involved is extreme. Governments in Europe are trying to make it as difficult as possible in order to keep immigrants out. They already have too much difficulty coping with their own unemployed work forces.

If you are a candidate without a European passport (or the right to get one) or not married to a European passport holder, you will notice that companies won’t even bother to reply to applications from non-Europeans. They have no way of employing non-Europeans and they are already getting too many unsolicited applications from European candidates."..........
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:33
  #17478 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Which is precisely why virtually every other country in the world administers their immigration needs in that way.

Over 17000 posts, almost 900 pages and still not one single poster has put a valid reason as to why FOM is a good thing.
That's a remarkable analysis to say the least.

As with questions posed, how many links showing the benefits of Freedom of movement, posted by several contributors, do you actually choose to ignore because if you had read them, there has been support on here, and in the real world, for the benefits not only to the UK and the EU, but also for those involved as to Freedom of movement.

But why worry about the past. Surely, with the plans proposed yesterday, all these inconvenient migrants will soon be consigned to history anyway and thus only happy, smiling, dynamic indigenous British will be filling the vacancies induced within seconds of them being advertised.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:40
  #17479 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Which is precisely why virtually every other country in the world administers their immigration needs in that way.

Over 17000 posts, almost 900 pages and still not one single poster has put a valid reason as to why FOM is a good thing.
For the record (and a couple of these points have already been brought up here over the last few days):

Free movement of labour ? advantages | Economics Help

I would also add it that from the UK perspective it is needed to keep your labour market attractive. Paperwork, filling forms, requesting visas will put people off - both unskilled and skilled.

If FOM was such a bad idea then all the businesses wouldn't be making such a big fuss over it, would they?

GS
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 09:52
  #17480 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
...


If you are a candidate without a European passport (or the right to get one) or not married to a European passport holder, you will notice that companies won’t even bother to reply to applications from non-Europeans. They have no way of employing non-Europeans and they are already getting too many unsolicited applications from European candidates."..........
That is not true. In Poland we currently have plenty of people from the Ukraine and Belarus. They work in construction, agricultiure, hospitality, retail. If you walk into any restaurant in Warsaw you are almost certain to come accross them, same goes for supermarkets and hotels. We even have a rule which allows them (and a few other nationalities) to work in our country for 6 months without needing to apply for a work permit.

GS
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