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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

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Old 16th Feb 2018, 07:03
  #26741 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
snip .... this demographic ... snip.. who prefer progression to regression, are also reluctant to embrace any form of societal progress ... snip
You're confusing change with progress.

Your world is populated with stereotypes - I voted Leave and I favour neither regression or xenophobia. (I've lived in France for 10 years and I haven't been reduced to shouting at the traffic - yet!)

How can those who voted Remain square their views with that innocent-sounding phrase "ever closer union"? A phrase that, as long as it remains undefined, is capable of whatever meaning the EU's policy makers choose to assign to it.

Only the British people*, through Parliament, should have the right to determine the future of the UK.

* By the way, I'm a British taxpayer and I'm a registered voter.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 07:11
  #26742 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ains-salvation

Britain, as politicians of all parties have long lamented, does not export enough. But there is little evidence that customs union membership is the main obstacle. As former trade minister Jim O'Neill observed when I interviewed him, Germany's largest trade partner is now China (Germany exports five times more to China than the UK). Britain's problems are domestic in origin (low productivity, a lack of public and private investment) and domestic in solution.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 09:17
  #26743 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sidevalve View Post
You're confusing change with progress.

Your world is populated with stereotypes - I voted Leave and I favour neither regression or xenophobia. (I've lived in France for 10 years and I haven't been reduced to shouting at the traffic - yet!)

How can those who voted Remain square their views with that innocent-sounding phrase "ever closer union"? A phrase that, as long as it remains undefined, is capable of whatever meaning the EU's policy makers choose to assign to it.

Only the British people*, through Parliament, should have the right to determine the future of the UK.

* By the way, I'm a British taxpayer and I'm a registered voter.
No confusion on my part, yours however being rather self evident, in that change isn't always for the better ( voting to leave ) whereas progress does involve positive benefits for society.

My world is far from populated with stereotypes although I do seem to encounter many who are determined to portray a stereotypical character in whatever context or role I encounter them in. I've even met rational Tories and, outwardly at least, normal Mail readers.

It's difficult not to be able to understand the term " ever closer union " when the term is remarkably definitive.

But, you will be ecstatic to learn, we do have something in common !.

I'm also a British taxpayer ( as an aside the IR just sent me a nice letter saying I owe.......£6 ! ) a registered voter and....hold a British passport still emblazoned with European Union at the top......which is what I define as...progress.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 16th Feb 2018 at 09:39.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 09:33
  #26744 (permalink)  
 
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The biggest word to describe Brexit since the vote is DISHONESTY

Even before the referendum dishonesty was prevalent on both sides of the argument
Since the Brexit win it’s been dishonesty and deception all the way
The worst deception is self deception by brexiteers themselves where the reality of brexit doesn’t fit their vision of a Britain which lies in their imagination only

That has caused Government to lie and to deceive the people by covering up bad brexit research, by trying to Keep brexit to themselves and away from
Parliamentary scrutiny
By shouting down any opposition to that vision by claiming the opposition is anti democracy thwarting the will of the people even being traitors
Any bully boy tactics used to cover the big deception

It is time now that a serious public debate is held with the pros and cons of what people voted for and an opportunity to put back the word honesty into a very dishonest subject call brexit

It’s right people should come into the discussion whichever way you turn it there is no economic reason for brexit and the economy not ideology pays the bills
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 09:42
  #26745 (permalink)  
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The difference, RetiredF4, is that Germany and France are sitting at the centre of system designed for their benefit. Germany industry substantially benefits from the Eurozone which keeps the price of German goods artificially suppressed and with low interest rates (at the expense of al the southern tier nations) and with tariffs walls, especially for agricutural produce, and deals designed for their purposes - such as the CAP.

As has been pointed out previously the recently signed EU-Japanese trade deal is designed to open up the Japanese market to mainly French wine and cheese - in exchange for opening up the EU market to Japanese built cars as opposed to those built in Sunderland - including the UK domestic market.

The UK might not do as many trade deals as the EU, but those it does will be designed to benefit, not damage, UK industry.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 10:11
  #26746 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The difference, RetiredF4, is that Germany and France are sitting at the centre of system designed for their benefit. Germany industry substantially benefits from the Eurozone which keeps the price of German goods artificially suppressed and with low interest rates (at the expense of al the southern tier nations) and with tariffs walls, especially for agricutural produce, and deals designed for their purposes - such as the CAP.
My referenced article, although it might portrait somebodys oppinion, demonstrates that the UK could have benefitted in the same way, albeit keeping the Pound and having lower productivity did not allow it.

As has been pointed out previously the recently signed EU-Japanese trade deal is designed to open up the Japanese market to mainly French wine and cheese - in exchange for opening up the EU market to Japanese built cars as opposed to those built in Sunderland - including the UK domestic market.
Such trade deals have a long go, the estimate is more than 7 years. The UK had a say in drafting this Trade agreement with Japan from the beginning, unfortunately not to the end.

With an UK within the EU, how would the Japanese car jndustry in the UK be negatively affected? Or any sector at all? It might even have had an increasing benefit from this deal. After Brexit this looks quite different, like the Japanese car industry pointed out lately. That's one of the self inflicted harm Brexit will deliver for the UK.

The UK might not do as many trade deals as the EU, but those it does will be designed to benefit, not damage, UK industry.
Any trade deal is a trade off, as the UK either already knows or will learn the hard way. There are sectors which will benefit and some will have to give way in any deal in this global economy. That is the difference to the colonial trade schemes, where the colonies had to be beneficial for their masters. It's the overall balance of benefits for trading partners at either end that matters today.

If there had been trade deals which damaged or benefitted the UK or any other country, then those deals were not specifically and intentionally designed to benefit or damage single countries like your wording alledges. The damage or the benefit was the result of national politics in using those deals to their advantage or disatvantage. The history is full of such lessons.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 10:20
  #26747 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
It's difficult not to be able to understand the term " ever closer union " when the term is remarkably definitive.
So pray enlighten me - where is the EU going? What lies ahead on the EU road map?
If you are unable to provide a clear answer to that, how can you vote Remain?
There comes a point in the membership of any club that if you feel that the rule changes are against your own interests - and your vote doesn't carry any weight - then there's only one course open to you.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 10:50
  #26748 (permalink)  
 
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There comes a point in the membership of any club that if you feel that the rule changes are against your own interests
That is the biggest problem with Brexit it is against the UKs interests political and economic demeaning our status on the world stage and well as seriously damaging our economy

The biggest problem the EU has had is too quick expansion taking in countries of very different parity
For FOM and the Euro to work properly there has to be parity then you get natural FOM rather than economically driven FOM
When more parity is achieved than there is no more wrong in a federal model to the USA but IMO that’s s good 15 to 20 years ahead

The stupid thing is the U.K could be one of the Leaders of this huge market block and the centre of investment for that block
Instead we are trying to turn ourselves into a tiny isolated island chasing bygone days of the Empire because the Elite classes prevalent in the Conservative Party pine for class distinction they enjoyed decades ago
Moggy fits that category perfectly a relic from the 1920s

Nowadays people are people we all mix go to the same wine bars and enjoy holidays abroad
Somehow that class distinction has been lost between the upper and working classes
I often wonder for diffrent reasons if this isn’t behind brexit ?

Even Corbyn has lost his cause the battles he had 40 years ago fighting class battles
The Moggys miss their superior class status they once held

Last edited by Pace; 16th Feb 2018 at 11:10. Reason: C
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:23
  #26749 (permalink)  
 
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Gouli. You and other Brexiteers keep asserting that if we leave with no deal, then it's not important. You just issue platitudes. Those of us who have worked in the detail of cross border trade and cross border regulation are told we are just scare mongering.
Detail please. Details.
How will the car plants keep operating if there is no free movement and no customs union in / out of the EU. All the UK volume car manufacturers are highly integrated with the rest of the EU?
How will flights illustrate if we are out of open skies?
How will our financial services industry sell into the EU without the 'passport' (Reminder, the WTO provisions do not cover services).
So stop the platitudes and start answering legitimate questions.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:47
  #26750 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post

However, despite your best intentions to attempt to portray the voting being primarily aligned to economics, correct me if I'm wrong here, but immigration and immigrants were decidedly prominent in the campaigns leading up to the referendum were they not ?

If an immigrant takes your job or drives the wages down in your sector then that tends to have quite an impact on your economic situation.

But lets all sit in the corner and cwy racist instead..
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:53
  #26751 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
That's pretty good really, at least 7 / 10 for the content to be worthy of inclusion in the usual media outlets dedicated to convincing the electorate as to why they should / did vote leave.
In just one sentence, you very effectively sum up the scornful, condescending and elitist attitude that drove many people to vote leave.

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
It's difficult not to be able to understand the term " ever closer union " when the term is remarkably definitive.
And yet you have denied, in the past, that there is any intention for the EU to evolve into a federal Europe.

Surely thatís the inevitable destination of an ďever closer unionĒ?
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:59
  #26752 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Highway1 View Post
If an immigrant takes your job or drives the wages down in your sector then that tends to have quite an impact on your economic situation.

But lets all sit in the corner and cwy racist instead..
Unless of course you think about it and realise that the wages in your sector would have gone down anyway owing to businesses relocating to lower cost ecnonomies or competition from foreign companies. You might even realise that FOM actually helped you keep a job, albeit perhaps a lower paid one. But that is perhaps better for you and your community than losing it alltogether?
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 13:14
  #26753 (permalink)  
 
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Reality Hits yet this government won’t reply

https://news.sky.com/story/like-bang...rexit-11253005
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 13:49
  #26754 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sidevalve View Post
So pray enlighten me - where is the EU going? What lies ahead on the EU road map?
If you are unable to provide a clear answer to that, how can you vote Remain?
There comes a point in the membership of any club that if you feel that the rule changes are against your own interests - and your vote doesn't carry any weight - then there's only one course open to you.
Enlightenment ?....good question to which I do not profess to know the answer because if I did, I would be at the beck and call of the political and business elites.......my phone remains silent and my email inbox empty in this respect.

What I do know however, is that the UK has progressed as a society by being part of the EU and my preference was for that progress to continue.

The club analogy.

The problem generally arises with members who are set in their ways, have their own little cliques and feel nothing should change that may affect their parochial little world.....enter something, and this word seems to be gaining prominence since you kindly introduced it to us.....progress. Once these luddites have departed in a fit of petulance, the club generally improves.

As far as I'm aware, the UK's vote carried considerable influence within the EU, the only problem being we couldn't actually dictate terms and conditions to the other members, much as the powers that be ( and some of the population ) feel we have an unassailable right to do because .....we're British.


In just one sentence, you very effectively sum up the scornful, condescending and elitist attitude that drove many people to vote leave.

Ah, have I now.

There was nothing even remotely resembling the terms you have used above in my post. However, you may wish to do some simple research as to which media sources have published the most, and varied, articles when it comes to disinformation, fallacies and downright lies with regard to the UK's membership of the EU.

It's difficult not to be able to understand the term " ever closer union " when the term is remarkably definitive.

And yet you have denied, in the past, that there is any intention for the EU to evolve into a federal Europe.

Surely that’s the inevitable destination of an “ever closer union”?



I haven't denied anything. What I have said is the urban myth of the "United States of Europe" was dispelled many years ago, but still surfaces when desperation calls.

I have though, posed the questions as to which countries within the EU are going to be the first to renounce their sovereignty and declare they are now part of this mythical "United States" and henceforth to be known as....whatever historical name comes to hand.

Thus far, the answers have cometh non.

Feel free to set the precedent here therefore by offering your vision as to when, and how, and whom this will involve.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 13:53
  #26755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
I have though, posed the questions as to which countries within the EU are going to be the first to renounce their sovereignty and declare they are now part of this mythical "United States" and henceforth to be known as....whatever historical name comes to hand.

Thus far, the answers have cometh non.
Wrong.

I answered this point at some length a year or two back, in response to yourself.

I didn't get a reply.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 14:01
  #26756 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Wrong.

I answered this point at some length a year or two back, in response to yourself.

I didn't get a reply.
How jolly remiss of me to have not replied ....possibly because your reply lacked any form of credibility perhaps ?

Anyway, as you have ostensibly replied before, it won't take you long to find the answers and repeat them please..... now will it.

We look forward to reading them.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 14:10
  #26757 (permalink)  
 
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As requested.

As to "not having any credibility", in your eyes of course it won't.........

Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
OK, Iíll bite.

The simple answer is Ė none. At least not if you put the question to their respective electorates in a referendum today. But you, I, and everyone else knows that. Which is why any such EU wide referenda would never happen.

Federalism isnít something which will happen overnight, because it would be politically impossible to deliver. So the process is far more insidious than that. Little by little, piece by piece, year by year, the building blocks of a federal Europe are being put into place. More and more powers being transferred to the ďcompetenceĒ of the commission. More and more standardisation. More and more EU wide institutions. The EU already has a parliament, a civil service, a de-facto currency, a central bank, a supreme court, a constitution, a flag and an anthem. It has its own consulates, a common travel area and a standardised passport. I could go on. How long before an EU military capability? Itís coming, for sure.

As I say, none of this happened overnight. Itís a process which has been going on for decades, but the scary thing is that itís inexorable, and entirely one way, and the architects of the process are united in their vision. Guy Verhofstadt recently wrote a book in which he pretty much claimed that everything good that had ever happened in Europe could be attributed to the EU, and any failure or shortcoming could have been prevented by greater integration and more decision making at an EU rather than a national level. And little by little, one step at a time, he and like-minded federalists accrue the powers they want. Can anyone tell me the last time the European Commission actually surrendered powers back to national governments?

So to answer your question, no, I donít think any EU member state is queuing up and volunteering to dissolve itself in a European nation state, but the process is happening regardless, and the governments of those member states are either unwilling, unable or simply too divided amongst themselves to challenge it.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 15:40
  #26758 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Golf-Sierra View Post
Unless of course you think about it and realise that the wages in your sector would have gone down anyway owing to businesses relocating to lower cost ecnonomies or competition from foreign companies. You might even realise that FOM actually helped you keep a job, albeit perhaps a lower paid one. But that is perhaps better for you and your community than losing it alltogether?
How are you going to relocate to another country service sector jobs like catering or construction jobs like bricklaying? - good trick if you can do it.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 15:49
  #26759 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Enlightenment ?....good question to which I do not profess to know the answer because if I did, I would be at the beck and call of the political and business elites.......my phone remains silent and my email inbox empty in this respect.
It sounds to me as though you're happy for our country to have belonged to the EU - that has "ever-closer union" as one of its stated aims - without knowing the political road map that will direct the EU's future path. The UK has had very little say in guiding strategy.. despite the fact that we've long been one of the major net contributors to the EU budget (as well as being a significant player on the international stage). The development of EU strategy falls within the bailiwick of the (unelected) Commission - guidance being provided by the Franco-German axis.
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
What I do know however, is that the UK has progressed as a society by being part of the EU and my preference was for that progress to continue.

The club analogy.

The problem generally arises with members who are set in their ways, have their own little cliques and feel nothing should change that may affect their parochial little world.....enter something, and this word seems to be gaining prominence since you kindly introduced it to us.....progress.
I think you'll find that you yourself introduced the notion of progress in your post #26764:
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
any form of societal progress
Yes, the UK is set in its ways - we're fortunate to have enjoyed parliamentary democracy for several hundred years. One of the features of parliamentary democracy is that the prime minister may be removed from power whenever he loses the confidence of a majority of the ruling party or of the parliament. Before you discard our democratic traditions, you might take note of what Tony Benn said on the subject. He famously argued that those in positions of economic, social and political power should always be asked the following five questions:
Ask yourself in an idle moment how the likes of Juncker and Tusk could be ejected from office by the people.
Prior to the parliament of England, we had the Magna Carta.. which, in one of its clauses, gave all ‘free men’ the right to justice and a fair trial. Some of Magna Carta’s core principles are echoed in the United States Bill of Rights (1791) and in many other constitutional documents around the world, as well as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and the European Convention on Human Rights (1950). So if that's the UK being set in its ways, long may it continue.
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Once these luddites have departed in a fit of petulance, the club generally improves.
As far as I'm aware, the UK's vote carried considerable influence within the EU, the only problem being we couldn't actually dictate terms and conditions to the other members, much as the powers that be ( and some of the population ) feel we have an unassailable right to do because .....we're British.
You clearly are in favour of the current situation where the Franco-German axis drives the strategy.. which, as ORAC pointed out earlier, works very much to their advantage.

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
It's difficult not to be able to understand the term " ever closer union " when the term is remarkably definitive.
As you're clearly unable to decrypt the "ever-closer union" phrase, it's safe to assume from your replies that, despite your bluster, that you really have no idea what it means.
You've previously claimed here that those who voted Leave did so out of a yearning for a soft-focus fifties Britain and the halycon days of Empire, or that we're all racists or xenophobic - when the reality was simply that we believe in our sovereign right to self-determination.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 16:30
  #26760 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
As requested.

As to "not having any credibility", in your eyes of course it won't.........
Well that's averted pistols at dawn or a front page apology in the Times then.

Thank you anyway, however, you seemed to have missed your answering the question yourself in your introductory line and last paragraph.

The bits in between simply chronicle how the EU has developed over the years, nothing more.

The bit about having an anthem however, well, lets just say I don't really think these nations are going to be at the forefront of rendering it....


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