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Old 15th Feb 2018, 16:00   #26741 (permalink)
 
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I'm not going to discuss your opinion, which contradicts known legal facts.
Yawn!! up to you but you didnt answer the question as usual.

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Rob C
you don't really base your views on what is in the daily express do you, do you know the kind of people who work there and who run it and their background.

it is all lies and fake news , heck even their endless stories on the weather and statins/diabetes/asprins that they publish on days when there is bad EU news( for them) are incorrect
PB
About as much as remainer base their views on what is in the Guardian, Independent. or New statesman
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 16:22   #26742 (permalink)
 
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Yawn!! up to you but you didnt answer the question as usual.
I'm so sorry, you probably jumped to the keyboard before I was able to ammend my post and correct it for misspellings.

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582...l#post10054026
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 16:57   #26743 (permalink)
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Not making a big thing of it, but the Lisbon Treaty was written to give the EU it’s own distinct legal personality in international affairs, apart from its member nations.

As such it is a hybrid, but the closest thing it resembles legally is a state, and every further proposed change, such as in further fiscal union, brings it ever closer.

Don’t take my word for it.

https://www.ab.gov.tr/files/EKYB/egi...l_identity.pdf
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:08   #26744 (permalink)
 
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I'm so sorry, you probably jumped to the keyboard before I was able to ammend my post and correct it for misspellings.
You are right my apologies.

Except NATO does not have its own Court that can hand down judgements, and impose fines and restrict voting rights or have its own currency. The NATO council is directly answerable to its own countries and does not have to swear an oath of alligance to NATO where EU comissioners do. Why do they have to do that? does that mean they do not answer to the state that sends them?

But seeing as you bring NATO up again. NATO have kept the peace for 50 years so why do the EU want their own armed forces? why duplicate? after all when you duplicate you add costs into the system? What will they be used for? defence? why you have NATO for that how about overseas missions? isnt that what the UN is for? How about internal peace keeping? mmm now theres a thought! imagine if they could be deployed where there was internal conflict. Catalonia for example.

Face it F4 the final goal of the EU is to become a superstate to rival the USA. Now if thats what you want then thats fine, I dont have an issue with it but at least admit it. Churchill himself said it would be a good idea and who am I to argue with Winston.
What Churchill also said however is that if Great Brtian had to choose between Europe and the open sea it must always choose the open sea.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:44   #26745 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
That was made abundantly clear before the referendum. People still voted to leave the EU because they believed that our political system with locally elected politicians was the one they wanted to live under, not as part of a federal state with proportional representation used to appoint representatives.

It was never about money!
How remarkable, 17,410,742 people voted leave and you know what motivated each and every one of them.

But I agree, no one who is still in gainful employment would vote leave in the hope of improving themselves financially. That is why the Brexit voting demographic is dominated by those already drawing a pension.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:51   #26746 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney
What Churchill also said however is that if Great Brtian had to choose between Europe and the open sea it must always choose the open sea.
With the Royal Navy virtually invisible to the naked eye and with even ships such as the Queen Mary 2 registered in Bermuda what on earth does this mean in 2018?
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 18:26   #26747 (permalink)
 
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With the Royal Navy virtually invisible to the naked eye and with even ships such as the Queen Mary 2 registered in Bermuda what on earth does this mean in 2018?
Nothing to do with the navy Jim but you knew that didnt you being a clever chappie

What it means is that the UK should remain an independent nation and not get tied into this "ever closer union" malarkey.

If its what you think is good for Bavaria then all power to your elbow hope you enjoy it but we dont want to be part of it.

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But I agree, no one who is still in gainful employment would vote leave in the hope of improving themselves financially. That is why the Brexit voting demographic is dominated by those already drawing a pension.
Are you saying those who are drawing a pension should not be allowed to vote? After all these are the people with the most experience of living in the EU?
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 18:30   #26748 (permalink)
 
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I'm not going to discuss your opinion, which contradicts known legal facts. Those say, that the EU is not a state and does not have an army. The Nato has a flag, an anthem, has army and the soldiers have to take an oath, so acording to you NATO is a state?
In all my years in the military I never once had to take an oath to NATO or was aware it had an anthem - who knew that all the years we were out there sitting on the North German plain we were doing it wrong.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 18:43   #26749 (permalink)
 
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In all my years in the military I never once had to take an oath to NATO or was aware it had an anthem - who knew that all the years we were out there sitting on the North German plain we were doing it wrong.
Nor me. Spent four years altogether in various ships bobbing about with STANAVFORLANT and the only anthem I can remember was the one sang by the combined RN/RCN run ashore choir which stripped the pi$$ out of the Septics.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 19:01   #26750 (permalink)
 
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Nor me. Spent four years altogether in various ships bobbing about with STANAVFORLANT and the only anthem I can remember was the one sang by the combined RN/RCN run ashore choir which stripped the pi$$ out of the Septics.
Actually, come to think of it you are right, my only oath was to my Queen and country when I wore green for 3 years. Actually the anthem is just a proposal and consists of a mash up of all the nations anthems so hardly unique
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 19:18   #26751 (permalink)
 
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Nothing to do with the navy Jim but you knew that didnt you being a clever chappie

What it means is that the UK should remain an independent nation and not get tied into this "ever closer union" malarkey.
Somehow I doubt it. Those who look to the open sea tend to be looking west to the USA. The ungenerous might be inclined to think that the UK's ambitions have now been reduced to the point where the best it can hope for is to be accepted as the 51st state of the union.

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Are you saying those who are drawing a pension should not be allowed to vote? After all these are the people with the most experience of living in the EU?
What I'm saying is that those in pension, because in the UK the state pension is linking to inflation rate, can better tolerate the falling value of the pound and the rising cost of living. They can far more easily engage in such 'noble' sentiments as, "it's not about money it's about taking back control." (and giving it to an unelected House of Lords etc) than those who are still working for a living.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:01   #26752 (permalink)
 
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Here's a little more on that Churchill quote.

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WINSTON CHURCHILL WRONGLY RECRUITED FOR BREXIT

Dead people can’t sue or answer back, writes Jon Danzig. Maybe that’s why supporters of Brexit thought they could get away with fabricating a quote by Churchill to support Britain leaving the European Union.

Increasingly doing the rounds in the lead-up to Britain’s EU referendum is a quote by Churchill which it is claimed he said to Parliament on 11 May 1953 when he was Britain’s Prime Minster.

The quote or variants of it, usually depicted alongside a photo of Churchill, is being heavily promoted on social media such as Twitter and Facebook, and quoted in multiple newspapers and blogs, usually by UKIP supporters.

The quote is being used to prove that Churchill would never have supported Britain’s membership of the EU, and that if he were alive now, he would be against the concept of today’s European Union and vote for Brexit in June’s referendum.

This is what’s claimed Churchill said in Parliament in 1953, during his second term in office as Prime Minister:

“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

The problem with this quote is that it’s a deception. Brexit supporters have fabricated it by ‘stitching’ together two different quotes by Churchill, said by him at different times and in different contexts.

The authors of this ‘stitch up’ have then falsely claimed that Churchill made this announcement in Parliament in 1953 as a reason for Britain not to join the emerging European Community.

In this way, Brexit supporters have posthumously ‘recruited’ Churchill as a backer of Britain leaving the EU in the forthcoming referendum.

So, let’s unravel this crude duplicity and betrayal of Britain’s greatest war leader.

The first four sentences of the ‘quote’ were not said by Churchill in Parliament in 1953, but written by him 23 years earlier, in February 1930, for America’s Saturday Evening Post.

Ironically, the title of Churchill’s article in 1930 was ‘The United States of Europe’ – a concept which he passionately supported.

Churchill considered that a truly united Europe would be the antidote to war and the path to greater security and prosperity for the continent. This in turn would be of considerable value to Britain, wrote Churchill. His article was remarkably prescient, as it outlined a blueprint for today’s European Union.

Churchill concluded that, “the concept of a United States of Europe is right.” His article imagined a Europe without internal barriers or tariffs, or passports, or multiple currencies, which would enable the “free interchange of goods and services” and the free travel of people across the continent.

And the idea of “European unity” was not new. “Europe has known the days when Rumanians lived on the Tyne and Spaniards on the Danube as equal citizens of a single state,” wrote Churchill, reminding his American readers of the Roman Empire.

Added Churchill, “Everywhere, in every age, in every area however wide, our every grouping of peoples however diverse, unity has made for strength and prosperity for all within its circle. Why should Europe fear unity?”

It was clear from his article, however, that at that time Churchill did not envisage Britain – which then headed a huge Empire and Commonwealth straddling the world – needing or wanting to be part of a ‘United States of Europe’.

It’s from this article that Brexit supporters have taken four sentences and claimed that instead of 1930, Churchill spoke them to Parliament in 1953. He did not.

Let me put the quote into context by quoting the sentences that immediately preceded it:

“We are bound to further every honest and practical step to which the nations of Europe may make to reduce barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare. We rejoice at every diminution of the internal tariffs and the martial armaments of Europe. We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality.

“But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”

Churchill’s view in 1930 would be bound to change by the 1950s, by which time Europe had endured a second devastating world war and was desperate to avoid another. (More of that shortly).

So, what about the last sentence of the misleading quote that Brexit supporters insist Churchill said to Parliament in 1953? Here it is again:

“If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

This was not said by Churchill after the war, but during the war, on the eve of the ‘D Day’ landings in Normandy that would eventually lead to victory over Nazi Germany.

The French leader, Charles de Gaulle, was flown from Algiers to London to be briefed on the battle plans called ‘Operation Overlord’.

But Churchill became exasperated with de Gaulle’s apparent obstinacy and brinkmanship, and wanted to demonstrate his strong loyalty to US President, Franklin Roosevelt, without whose help Britain - and Europe - would be lost.

Churchill’s temper with de Gaulle flared up and he demanded to know how the British could act separately from the United States. During the raging row, Churchill bellowed to de Gaulle:

“We are going to liberate Europe, but it is because the Americans are with us. So get this quite clear. Every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose. Every time I have to choose between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt.”

De Gaulle accepted this was bound to be the case, and tempers calmed down during the ensuing lunch (with fine wine). Churchill raised his glass and said, “To de Gaulle, who never accepted defeat.” And de Gaulle raised his and said, “To Britain, to victory, to Europe.”

For sure, the two of them had a mercurial relationship. De Gaulle once famously and loftily remarked, “When I am right, I get angry. Churchill gets angry when he is wrong. So we were often very angry with each other.”

Brexit supporters should not have taken a quote by Churchill yelled in anger during the war and falsely claimed that he said it as part of a considered speech to Parliament eight years after the war had ended.

In fact, the entire quote now being promoted by Brexit supporters to claim Churchill’s support for their cause is nothing other than a misleading concoction.

It is, however, true that in the early 1950s Churchill did not support Britain’s membership of the emerging European Community.

So why haven’t Brexit supporters instead quoted what Churchill actually did say to Parliament on 11 May 1953? After all, it’s easy to verify as it’s available online in the edition of Hansard for that day:

"Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition "with" but not "of"—we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire."

In 1950, Churchill explained to Parliament why he didn't “at present” foresee Britain being, “a member of a Federal Union of Europe.” This was primarily because of Britain’s position, “at the centre of the British Empire and Commonwealth”, and, “our fraternal association with the United States of America.”

It was clear that Churchill’s opposition was not a principled one, but a practical one.

Crucially, in answering the question ‘Are you prepared to part with any degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a larger synthesis?' Churchill responded:

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable, and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together.’

Everything was to change during the course of the 1950s and 1960s, when it became clear that Britain’s Empire had finished and its Commonwealth was diminished.

In March 1957 the six nations of France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg founded the European Economic Community (later to be renamed the European Union).

Four months later Churchill gave his last speech on Europe at Central Hall, Westminster. He welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by the six, provided that, “the whole of free Europe will have access.” He added, “we genuinely wish to join.”

In August 1961, Churchill wrote: “I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...”

Churchill supported the ‘welding’ of West Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg into ‘an organic whole’, which he described as a "happy outcome" of the European Economic Community. Churchill added:

"We might well play a great part in these developments to the profit of not only ourselves, but of our European friends also."

And in 1963, just two years before he died, Churchill wrote, “The future of Europe if Britain were to be excluded is black indeed.”

Brexit campaigners, however, are increasingly using Churchill’s words and images to recruit his memory to their side. Recently ‘Vote.Leave’ launched a video presenting the case for Britain’s exit from the EU, and featured Winston Churchill alongside other famous British heroes.

But Churchill’s grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames, launched a scathing attack against the use of the war leader’s words and images in support of Brexit. He said that they had no right to use his grandfather in this way and suggested that Churchill’s views would never have aligned with their campaign.

Sir Nicholas told The Independent newspaper, “Winston Churchill was a profound believer in the values of European co-operation and the need for it, and I am very disappointed to see these people twisting his views to suit their own ends.”

Contrary to what Brexit supporters might tell you, Churchill is recognised as one of the founders of the European Union, and has a building named after him at the European Parliament in Strasbourg. (I know; I’ve been there.)

Fortunately, truth usually prevails in the end.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:01   #26753 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
You are right my apologies.



"Face it F4 the final goal of the EU is to become a superstate to rival the USA. Now if thats what you want then thats fine, I dont have an issue with it but at least admit it. Churchill himself said it would be a good idea and who am I to argue with Winston.
What Churchill also said however is that if Great Brtian had to choose between Europe and the open sea it must always choose the open sea."
Rob, please do forgive me but I do believe you may have fallen foul of one of the greatest misunderstandings in history. On the 70th anniversary of Sir Winston Churchill`s famous Zurich speech, the FT published an article titled

Historic misunderstanding underlies UK-EU relationship on Churchill anniversary

Here is the link to the article in full which the title of Father of Misunderstandings about Britains part in Europe, was bestowed on him by the political commentator and journalist Hugo Young.


Here is the web link to the article in full:


https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-...9-1365ce54b926


Your final comments emphasise the above, what a wonderful comment, expect no less from the First Lord to the Admiralty of course. The freedom of the open sea.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:08   #26754 (permalink)
 
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Nor me. Spent four years altogether in various ships bobbing about with STANAVFORLANT and the only anthem I can remember was the one sang by the combined RN/RCN run ashore choir which stripped the pi$$ out of the Septics.
That's live, isn't it. I've spent two decades in NATO and never thought it would qualify for a state.

But fact is, at the present time the EU is no state, has no government, is governed by democratic states, and has no army. But Rob likes to repeat false statements regardless of facts.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:29   #26755 (permalink)
 
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Rob, please do forgive me but I do believe you may have fallen foul of one of the greatest misunderstandings in history. On the 70th anniversary of Sir Winston Churchill`s famous Zurich speech, the FT published an article titled
I underdstand what you are saying Chronous but that quote was not part of the Zurich speech it was in a given in a meeting with De-Gaulle just before the Normandy invasions in 1944. It is incorrectly atributed to that speech or another he made in the house of Commons.

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Somehow I doubt it. Those who look to the open sea tend to be looking west to the USA. The ungenerous might be inclined to think that the UK's ambitions have now been reduced to the point where the best it can hope for is to be accepted as the 51st state of the union.
Not at all I see it as loking outward to the wider world in other words north south east and west.


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What I'm saying is that those in pension, because in the UK the state pension is linking to inflation rate, can better tolerate the falling value of the pound and the rising cost of living. They can far more easily engage in such 'noble' sentiments as, "it's not about money it's about taking back control." (and giving it to an unelected House of Lords etc) than those who are still working for a living.
You could say that but it would be incorrect, yes a lot of people over 65 voted to leave but nearly 50% of people in the 50 to 65 age group did too and they have much to lose. Of course if the young had been bothered they could have voted but didnt which means they probably didnt care.

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But fact is, at the present time the EU is no state, has no government, is governed by democratic states, and has no army. But Rob likes to repeat false statements regardless of facts.
I think the words you need to concentrate on here F4 "AT THE PRESENT TIME" So are you claiming there are no plans for "ever closer union" a single finance plan a EU army (Junkers already let the cat out of the bag) Whats false about that.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:47   #26756 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Jetex_Jim View Post
What I'm saying is that those in pension, because in the UK the state pension is linking to inflation rate, can better tolerate the falling value of the pound and the rising cost of living. They can far more easily engage in such 'noble' sentiments as, "it's not about money it's about taking back control." (and giving it to an unelected House of Lords etc) than those who are still working for a living.
Perhaps they will eventually realise that the triple lock isn't sustainable forever during a time of falling national income? Oh, no, 'cos that's what's called a "fact", and they don't do facts, so they won't realise this at all.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 20:51   #26757 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney
Quoting JetexJim:
What I'm saying is that those in pension, because in the UK the state pension is linking to inflation rate, can better tolerate the falling value of the pound and the rising cost of living. They can far more easily engage in such 'noble' sentiments as, "it's not about money it's about taking back control." (and giving it to an unelected House of Lords etc) than those who are still working for a living.
end Quote.
You could say that but it would be incorrect, yes a lot of people over 65 voted to leave but nearly 50% of people in the 50 to 65 age group did too and they have much to lose. Of course if the young had been bothered they could have voted but didnt which means they probably didnt care.
I'm not incorrect. YouGov, How Britain voted. The largest cohort of leave voters were the over 65s. 64% to 36% voted leave.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

Another interesting division is education.
Quote:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.
Naturally, in today's Britain those without a degree outnumber those with one.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 21:59   #26758 (permalink)
 
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I think the words you need to concentrate on here F4 "AT THE PRESENT TIME" So are you claiming there are no plans for "ever closer union" a single finance plan a EU army (Junkers already let the cat out of the bag) Whats false about that.
Yes, it was my bolding, at the present time. You refer to it as being reality already.

The UK plans to become great again, Trump plans his wall, and some are dreaming of the united states of Europe. I could not care less.

I'm living in the now and will be dead in the long term.

Time will tell what is coming , not you and not your biased oppinion.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 23:07   #26759 (permalink)
 
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I'm not incorrect. YouGov, How Britain voted. The largest cohort of leave voters were the over 65s. 64% to 36% voted leave.
Yes they dud but what I am saying is other groups also voted for leave nearly 50% in the 50-65 age groups also voted leave. But it does not matter unless you are trying to say anybody who draws a pension shouldnt be able to vote. Is that what you are trying to say?

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Naturally, in today's Britain those without a degree outnumber those with one.
Yes they do because going to university only became accessible to everyone about 18 years ago so the older generations did not have the same chance to go. But whats your point are you now saying those without a degree should not be allowed to vote?

Quote:
Yes, it was my bolding, at the present time. You refer to it as being reality already.
The UK plans to become great again, Trump plans his wall, and some are dreaming of the united states of Europe. I could not care less.
I'm living in the now and will be dead in the long term.
Time will tell what is coming , not you and not your biased oppinion.
Yes of course its a biased opinion I have alreay said that. Unlike you who claim to be neutral.

My point F4 which you are (probably deliberately) missing is that the final goal of the EU is to create an EU state, you can dance around with silly arguments about it being a collective of individual states but both you and I know where the final destination is planned to be. Now you may want that for your country thats okay I have no problems with that but I and the majority of the electorate in the UK dont. Organisations do not need their own central bank courts currency and armies.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 23:23   #26760 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Yes of course its a biased opinion I have alreay said that. Unlike you who claim to be neutral.

My point F4 which you are (probably deliberately) missing is that the final goal of the EU is to create an EU state, you can dance around with silly arguments about it being a collective of individual states but both you and I know where the final destination is planned to be. Now you may want that for your country thats okay I have no problems with that but I and the majority of the electorate in the UK dont. Organisations do not need their own central bank courts currency and armies.

The point is that that is your opinion..... and you have repeated it the umteenth time. Everybody should know about it now. My oppinion is different from yours, although you constantly try to mind read what I and other should think.

I think for myself and I post for myself as others do. We need no Rob C. to tell what we think in the line of ."...both you and I know where the final destination is planned to be. Now you may want that for your country thats okay ....."

Concerning calling facts being my silly arguments: You are obviously out of them again, therefore you are getting personal.

Last edited by RetiredF4; 16th Feb 2018 at 00:07.
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