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Tesla and Lithium

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Tesla and Lithium

Old 2nd Dec 2017, 05:31
  #961 (permalink)  
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But, wot if it rains?


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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:21
  #962 (permalink)  
 
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But, wot if it rains?
While they were spending the millions they should have added a solar roof, but then you wouldn't be able to see the batteries which is where all the intrigue and marketing currently is. Perhaps they'll add it later.

Interesting to hear the rumours on the quoted price of the thing which range from $33m up to $250m. Surprised no politician's family business has benefited in its construction, perhaps the limelight was way too shiny than normal.
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:54
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I recently watched a documentary on TV re Tesla's design and production. When it came to the batteries, it was explained the battery is made up of dozens/hundreds of smaller Lithium Ion batteries, a bit like a big collection of AA cells. Presumably, the Australian mega battery is constructed the same way. Meanwhile, Boeing are still having problems with what seems to be the same sort of battery cooking off!
A United 787 in Paris experienced a battery cooking up and venting nasty liquids etc.
I wonder how that would play out with the Aussie battery?
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Old 3rd Dec 2017, 01:21
  #964 (permalink)  
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Well, one less off the production line and a couple of hundred thousand dollars off the bottom line.


"Billionaire technology magnate Elon Musk plans to launch a Tesla Roadster to Mars next month with it blaring David Bowie on the stereo.
Musk, 46, made the announcement via Twitter on Friday, stating that a SpaceX rocket, known as the Falcon Heavy, will blast off from Cape Canaveral, site of the historic Apollo 11 mission.
'Falcon Heavy to launch next month from Apollo 11 pad at the Cape. Will have double thrust of next largest rocket. Guaranteed to be exciting, one way or another,' Musk posted. " DM


Takes The Cake Award 2017.
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Old 3rd Dec 2017, 05:35
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All this talk of a 400,000 backlog had me mesmerized until I shook myself awake. Despite placing a deposit, people are people, and I bet that a sizeable number will get cold feet before then as interesting alternatives present themselves. 400,000 will only have been a rough target for Mr Musk, surely, and a scare for the opposition.
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Old 3rd Dec 2017, 10:45
  #966 (permalink)  
 
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Vee haff oor vays ....

Here in Germany the mass-circulation Auto Bild just ran a multi-page article about a scam Tesla has been pulling.

Germany offers a four-thousand-euro rebate on cars with a list price of less than sixty thousand euros, which deliberately excluded the Tesla then on offer (most electric vehicles here are just simple "city cars," and local-delivery vehicles, nothing luxurious at all, so not so dear). Tesla's solution was to make such features as GPS, rear-vision camera, and lane-holding assistance part of a thirteen-thousand-euro package of options, dropping the cost of the base model just below sixty thousand and thus qualifying for the rebate.

After receiving complaints about prospective purchasers being told that the base model was unavailable, an Auto Bild editor tried to make a test purchase, only to be told the same thing, when his purchase was refused and his deposit promptly refunded.

One, and only one, persistent German did finally succeed in buying the base model, when he found that it was fitted with a deactivated camera but functional GPS and lane-holding assistance. That makes it seem as if Tesla only builds cars with this so-called package of options as part of the standard equipment, not as options at all.

Tesla seems to have named some standard equipment as options simply to get under that price threshold, which is some kind of fraud on the German government. Now, one supposes, they'll have to offer the fully-equipped car as the basis model, with the "extras" included for thirteen thousand euro less than as options. Too, purchasers of these cars who got the four-thousand-euro bonus may be forced to pay it back, on the basis that they falsely claimed as extras what should have been included in the base price.

My wife has a colleague who owns a Tesla which he enjoys taking on weekend runs just for the hell of it. He wants to come visit us and offer me a test drive in his Tesla. That should be fun.

Last edited by chuks; 3rd Dec 2017 at 11:00.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 14:01
  #967 (permalink)  
 
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I should check back to this thread more often.

Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The other worrying aspect is that a car like a Tesla is a fair bit more complex than something like a desktop PC or tablet.
When the Tesla first got hacked, I read a write-up by the hackers. From memory, they ended by saying that because the IT and networking was designed with the car instead of being shoehorned into a finished automotive design like other manufacturers, it was much harder to hack than other cars. They also said that Tesla was more willing to work with them to fix the flaws than other manufacturers.

Originally Posted by SARF View Post
Tesla mega battery.. it can power 30,000 homes for a whole hour.. not really the Hinckley point b then
Because it is not meant to do more. Nuclear power stations are base load generators. Batteries are peaking generators. Powering 30,000 homes for an hour is equivalent to supplying 5% of extra load for an hour, or 2.5% for 2 hours, or 10% for half an hour. And they are price competitve with other peaking generators.

Originally Posted by Captain Dart View Post
That article is rather unfair. Expecting and complaining that the battery supplies 100% of the state for only 2 minutes is disingenuous. Firstly, the battery is NOT meant to supply 100% of the state's needs at any time, any more than any single diesel or gas generator or hydro dam. Its main purpose is to supply power for minutes to hours during under capacity while baseload is still supplying. Some peaking plants only run for a few hours per year. No one ever complains that a hydro dam can only supply the whole state for minutes, do they?

And making snide remarks about its reliability by referring to power blackouts due to transmission lines being damaged by lightning strikes. Really? Do coal fired power stations come with magical transmission lines that never fail in storms?

As for the two sites of quick-start diesel generators, she neglected to mention that by the same metric she used for the batteries, it can only supply 13% of the state's full usage and takes at least 8 minutes to start up. Those 8 minutes will be when your grid stability goes to hell in a handbasket if you don't have those much maligned batteries keeping things stable.

Different components have different pros and cons. A properly engineered system will have different components working together to get the most advantage and cover each other's weakness. Deliberately excluding a component due to a political bias is not only more expensive overall, it also makes for a more fragile system.

Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
A United 787 in Paris experienced a battery cooking up and venting nasty liquids etc.
I wonder how that would play out with the Aussie battery?
The Tesla batteries have active cooling and very good management and control, I dare say better than what goes into the 787 (because there is a greater amount of them, which means catastrophic failure will be much worse, as in bigger, more sustained fires). Which is why they use so many small cells packed together rather than fewer bigger cells.

Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Well, one less off the production line and a couple of hundred thousand dollars off the bottom line.

"Billionaire technology magnate Elon Musk plans to launch a Tesla Roadster to Mars next month "
You do know that they are launching his old Roadster, the car that came off the production line 9 or 10 years ago? Hardly likely to impact current production line. Besides, he needs to clear a space in his garage for the new Roadster .

Originally Posted by chuks View Post
purchasers of these cars who got the four-thousand-euro bonus may be forced to pay it back, on the basis that they falsely claimed as extras what should have been included in the base price.
If that article is accurate, that would be the...
One, and only one, persistent German did finally succeed in buying the base model,
Shouldn't be too difficult to get back then (if it is even worth the effort).

If anyone is interested, I came across this lecture by Tony Seba which gave rather compelling economic reasons why EVs and solar/battery systems are inevitable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 14:31
  #968 (permalink)  
 
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EV's might be the future but its looking like a future without Tesla - are they the 21st Century DeLorean?

But Tesla – which lost $619 million in Q3 – delivered only 3,590 vehicles in November in the US, down 18% from a year ago.

In Q3, Tesla delivered 220 handmade Model 3’s. In October, it delivered about 145 handmade units. In November, the assembly line still wasn’t assembling cars. Inside EVs estimates that Tesla delivered a whopping 345 units in November.

Inside EVs estimates that Tesla delivered 1,335 Model S in the US. This was far outpaced by the humble Model-3-killer the Chevy Bolt. GM sold 2,987 Bolts in November.

The Chevy Bolt faces no “production bottlenecks” and no “manufacturing hell.” It was rolled out gradually, starting in October 2016 in California and Oregon, with other states being added to the distribution plan over time. By August 2017, the Bolt was available in all states. By September, 2,632 Bolts were sold in the US; in October 2,781; and in November 2,987.

The Bolt became the best-selling EV in October and retained that crown in November. Nothing was even close. November was the ninth month in a row of rising sales, as it should be for a brand-new vehicle line. GM has sold 20,070 Bolts so far this year.

Every automaker is preparing a lineup of EVs. Unlike Tesla, they have their supply chains down pat, and they know how to get their assembly lines to function, and they know how to mass-produce vehicles. There are already about two dozen EV models on the market in the US. Like GM, these automakers are just using their EVs to lay the groundwork for the broader shift.
carmageddon
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 17:58
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Cee cee, from my read of the Auto Bild article and the sense of what Tesla's pricing implies, the only purchaser in the clear with regard to the four-thousand euro rebate would be the man who actually did pay just less than sixty-thousand euros net for his Tesla.

In the article, it was mentioned that the editor got a call-back from Tesla, offering him the car without the extras for the lower price. It might be that someone figured out who he was, namely an editor with Auto Bild. If I know Germans then there are going to be a lot of unhappy ones who will want the same deal they were originally refused, a Model S for just under sixty-thousand euros net.

It was clear from the beginning that Tesla was probably not going to be able to hit its targets for producing the Model 3 in volume. Meanwhile, the established manufacturers are moving into this segment of the market, so that by the time Tesla get their factory running smoothly it might be too late for them to catch that first rush of enthusiasm for their mass-market car from early-adopters, as they did with the Model S. By the time that mass production of the Model 3 comes on line then there probably will be better cars available from established manufacturers with far better customer sales and support networks.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 12:33
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
EV's might be the future but its looking like a future without Tesla - are they the 21st Century DeLorean?

carmageddon
I have no skin in the game, but I think Tesla may have a bit more staying power for the following reasons:

1. It is true that the traditional car companies have got the structural manufacture of cars down pat, Tesla themselves admit it. But they do know how to design computer systems better than anyone else in that industry, and that gives them an advantage ahead of others. Whether it is sufficient is another kettle of fish.
When I asked Ian Wright [Tesla’s VP of Vehicle Development] how Tesla had changed the way cars are developed and manufactured, he said that the company had indeed done so, but not in the ways that people might think. “The way that Toyota manufactures a car, the way they stamp the metal and weld them together and paint them and do all the interior bits and put the car together, it’s kind of hard to beat that,” said Wright. “I’m not sure that Tesla’s made any advances on that, or even gotten to the level of doing that. On the other hand, if you’re a Silicon Valley technology engineer, and you look at the way modern cars are designed from an electronics point of view, to use an Australian expression, it looks like a dog’s breakfast. It doesn’t appear that they have what we would call a systems architecture.” https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-auto...s-morris-book/
2. Tesla now have other irons in the fire. Even if they stop being a car manufacturer, they are still a cell manufacturer. And their gigafactory means that, unlike the car industry, they are not a niche player. The fact that they are not a minor player could be seen when they created a new cell form factor to suit their own requirements. The rise of EV and stationary power storage means that demand is only going to increase.

3. They are also competing for the utility, industrial and residental power storage market. As a mainly IT company, this may be where they have an advantage over their competitors. The hardware is commodity items, but the firmware and apps differentiates the mediocre from the excellent.

But I think that the next generation of large EV manufacturers are likely to be from China. The tide has shifted from US to Japan to Korea in the past as their manufacturing established themselves, and China is next on the horizon. Tesla will probably remain as a high-end EV manufacturer.

Originally Posted by chuks View Post
from my read of the Auto Bild article and the sense of what Tesla's pricing implies, the only purchaser in the clear with regard to the four-thousand euro rebate would be the man who actually did pay just less than sixty-thousand euros net for his Tesla.
From Tesla Proves to Be Too Pricey for Germany, Loses Tax Subsidies - The Drive it sounds like the lower equipment level was negotiated between Tesla and the German government.

"Instead, Tesla and the German Government agreed on an acceptable middle ground that allows Tesla to sell a low option vehicle that qualifies for the incentive and customers can subsequently upgrade if they wish. That is exactly what Tesla has done." Tesla spokesperson

I wonder if the ordering and manufacturing process has something to do with this. Correct me if I am wrong, but for most car manufacturers, someone predicts the number and equipment level demands by customers and manufacture/assemble them before orders are taken. I thought that in the US market, Tesla assembles the vehicles specifically according to the customer orders placed. However, I can't see that happening in the European market due to the separation in distance and time. If this is true, could it be that Tesla underestimated the demand of low option vehicles for the German market?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 13:46
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Originally Posted by cee cee View Post
I wonder if the ordering and manufacturing process has something to do with this. Correct me if I am wrong, but for most car manufacturers, someone predicts the number and equipment level demands by customers and manufacture/assemble them before orders are taken. I thought that in the US market, Tesla assembles the vehicles specifically according to the customer orders placed. However, I can't see that happening in the European market due to the separation in distance and time. If this is true, could it be that Tesla underestimated the demand of low option vehicles for the German market?
Toyota were still manufacturing to order in Japan for hybrids and plug-in at the time of the last new one I bought (four years ago now). They were all made in Japan, and when you ordered one that triggered production in Japan, with typically a 6 to 8 week delivery delay to the UK. Very few stock plug-ins were kept in the UK (none at all the time I bought mine) but there was a small stock of hybrids, so if you wanted a model and spec that happened to be in stock in the UK you could get it within a few days.
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 03:24
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There's your problem ....

"Instead, Tesla and the German Government agreed on an acceptable middle ground that allows Tesla to sell a low option vehicle that qualifies for the incentive and customers can subsequently upgrade if they wish. That is exactly what Tesla has done." Tesla spokesperson

When something is offered on the German market then there is a obligation to fulfill the offer; this is what, according to Auto Bild, Tesla has not done, and what the source of the trouble might be. According to the article only one consumer was able to order the Model S with that promised base specification.

I ordered a BMW 325Ci for my wife once, even paying for the options, which were about 30% of the total price. (Who wants a "stripped" 325Ci? The options are what turn it into "a BMW.") On the other hand, though, if we had wanted that car without any options, not even a radio, BMW would have built it that way. They would have been obliged to do that even though it's obvious that the options are where they make a lot of their money.

It's simply that Tesla agreed to make this base model available in order to qualify for the incentive, but then chose not to stick to the agreement. (The price point for the incentive seems to have been chosen in part to shut out Tesla.) It's simply so that whatever you offer to a German consumer you must actually intend to supply. Here it seems that Tesla customers were not able to "subsequently upgrade if they wish[ed]." They had been forced to buy the only model available, the one with expensive standard equipment, stuff that was not optional at all. Now it would seem that Tesla is caught in a trap of its own making by having made a grab for that incentive by offering something they had no intention of supplying: a Model S that cost just under sixty thousand euros net.

One thing, I believe, is that Germany generally does not allow class-action suits, so that each individual purchaser of a Model S now would have to chase Tesla over: not being given the choice of buying the promised base model that does not exist; over-paying for the same car one buyer got for sixty thousand euros net; and/or having to pay back the four-thousand euro incentive. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, especially given that Tesla is an American interloper in the German market for electric vehicles.
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Old 17th Feb 2018, 09:07
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Still puzzling over Nissan's Japan's *domestic-market-only all EV-driven Note E-Power with 1.2L ICE generator. The battery pack is 1/20th the size of the Nissan Leaf's and slips under the front seat. This battery drives the wheels, and the battery is charged as necessary by the engine which kicks in at 2,500 revs every so often only to top it up. Lifting of the accelerator also charges the battery. Goes like chocolate pud off a shovel, so quite nippy in traffic, indeed torque of the town?
Might buy one, more so the interesting-looking Nismo version.


The total global switch to EV is massively unrealistic in the immedate future, and there will inevitably be many varieties of hybrids keeping us going during the great gradual shiftover. The Note's main advantage seems to be that you get the joys of electric performance, without the hassles of plug-in charging.
*And NZ apparently.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 17th Feb 2018 at 10:39.
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Old 1st Mar 2018, 20:46
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It would appear our Musk is facing a Jaguar ready to pounce:

The production model basically matches the specs Jaguar originally set out to achieve with the I-Pace concept. A 90 kWh battery will give it an estimated 240 miles of range, which is more than enough for day-to-day driving. If and when you wind up running low on charge, Jaguar says the batteries can go from zero to 80 percent in just 40 minutes at 100kW DC fast charging stations. (A similar charge on a Level 2 home charger will take about 10 hours, according to Jaguar.)

With regards to performance, the dual motors — one on each axel — combine to give the I-Pace 394 horsepower, which gets it from 0–60 miles per hour in 4.5 seconds, Jaguar says. The company is promising a smooth ride, too, as active air suspension comes standard. Jaguar’s driver assistance features will be included as well.


JAGUAR’S I-PACE IS A SPEEDY DUAL-MOTOR MODEL X COMPETITOR - The Verge MAR 2018
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 04:25
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Road and Track finally got a hold of a Model 3 to road test - they rather liked the way it drove but were less thrilled about the rest of the car - including the single center mounted display. Last I heard Model 3's where still rolling off the assembly line at a snails pace, and despite the $35k quoted price every Model 3 produced so far has an MSPR north of $50k.
I'm on a ski vacation in Breckenridge at the moment. The condo where I'm staying has several electric car charging stations in the parking garage - none of which I'd ever seen used until a couple days ago. As I was leaving to make a run to get some groceries, there was a small Tesla parked in one of the charging stations - it definitely wasn't a Model S or X so I have to assume it was a Model 3. I was quite frankly shocked since most of the 3's delivered so far have gone to Tesla employees (perhaps the one I saw belonged to a Tesla employee).
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 04:34
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According to this site
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

4300+ Tesla model 3s have been delivered in the US this year.
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 06:21
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A Jag or a Tesla, hmmm... . Gotta win the lottery first though.
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 07:57
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1500 Jags ordered in Norway so far. To thank us we're the official launch country.
Prices revealed today, very competitive, cheap actually compared to Tesla X.
Prices range from high 50 to low 70K GPB.
Tesla is in for a rough ride and Jag is the new Golf.
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 13:14
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As reported by the UK's IET
Car manufacturers allegedly miss selling their range estimates
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/art...ge-mp-alleges/
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Old 2nd Mar 2018, 13:23
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I wonder how many all-electric cars there were among those trapped yesterday from mid-morning to and including overnight in the snowdrifts on the 30 miles of the A1 yesterday?
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