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The EU - in or out? This is the hamsterwheel.

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The EU - in or out? This is the hamsterwheel.

Old 15th Jun 2016, 22:43
  #3501 (permalink)  

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BBC NEWS | Africa | Geldof: Ethiopia aid 'pathetic'

"The EU have been pathetic and appalling, and I thought we had dealt with that 20 years ago when the electorate of our countries said never again," Geldof said.

He said the US and UK had been generous, but called on the EU to "release whatever foods it can and get them here as a matter of urgency .... I can guarantee that everyone will not want to see the horror of what we saw in the 80s, and it will truly happen," he said.
But now he is worth in excess of £32 million, funny how "Give us your money now!" Bob's views have changed.

On this day back in '85, globally, Live Aid raised £30 million, go figure why Geldof wants to remain.
BBC ON THIS DAY | 13 | 1985: Live Aid makes millions for Africa
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Old 15th Jun 2016, 23:27
  #3502 (permalink)  
 
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Thirty years on and the poor and homeless are now queuing for handouts from foodbanks in the UK. Bob didn't solve the problem, he imported it here, and got a medal for it!
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 00:13
  #3503 (permalink)  
 
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The last time a Chancellor threatened the electorate in such a fashion was in Germany in 1936.
I think you will find it was in February 2014, and it was the same Chancellor.

However you have just invoked Godwin's Law.

I really don't understand the focus on immigration, since the majority of immigration is non-eu; then again if it means that you righty-haties get your wish to somehow make Britain great again I suppose it will be worth it for you.

Remind me, how are you going to make Britain great again? Britain became "great" on the back of slavery and taking control of 25% of the planet's landmass by military force. We don't have a particularly powerful Navy, Army or Air Force anymore, and I doubt our NATO allies would allow us to invade any unsuspecting small African countries. So what exactly is the plan?
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 01:15
  #3504 (permalink)  
 
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We are going to give Scotland devolution, then invade

Odd isn't it we speak of Europe and wanting to retake our self determination back from the EU, but fight to prevent the Scottish from doing the same.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 01:24
  #3505 (permalink)  
 
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GCE

Unfortunately you have seen through my attempt to avoid invoking Godwin's Law by not naming names. :-)

According to the government figures, two thirds of recent (2004-2014) immigration has been from EU countries, a third from countries outside the EU. The point was that while we have some measure of control over who enters the country from outside the EU, we have no control over how many EU citizens come to the UK to work or settle. Irrespective of where people come from, a net population increase of a third of a million each year over that time period is clearly unsustainable without a massive increase in spending and building to support the needs of these new residents in the UK. There is no sign that immigration into the UK is slowing down and it may well increase in the future. I believe a figure of 8% was quoted as being the current UK resident population that was born outside the UK. That is a huge figure for any country to absorb and it will lead to negative social consequences if allowed to continue growing.

By leaving the EU we are no longer bound by the terms of EU trade agreements and this might be something of a double edged sword, a claymore if you like.

As several posters have pointed out, trade agreements tend to be restrictive and there is no need for any trade agreements to exist at all for trade to carry on with any country we choose if we are free of EU controls and protectionism.

While we may not seek to return to our "glorious" colonial ways, Britain has a lot to offer the world if free to act outside the suffocating constraints of the EU and its one size fits all policies. While we are accused of supporting slavery, the facts of the matter are that we were just the middle men transporting people who where already enslaved from one place to another. Britain was the first country to enact laws abolishing slavery, and considering our influence around the world at that time, that was no smalll thing. Britain is at its best acting as the middleman in trade deals and taking a cut from both sides if possible.

As far as subjugating a quarter of the world's land mass. We somehow managed most of that with relatively small armies and some colonial administrators. Persuasion, blackmail and intimidation may have been tools in our arsenal, but it could not have been done without the general acquiescence of the local population. Many countries prospered under British colonial rule. Many have become failed and corrupt states since the British left. Perhaps we could persuade some of these countries to accept British govenership once more in exchange for a robust legal system, development of advanced technology and sustainable ways of developing their natural resources.

Just a suggestion.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 05:21
  #3506 (permalink)  
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" As far as subjugating a quarter of the world's land mass. We somehow managed most of that with relatively small armies and some colonial administrators. Persuasion, blackmail and intimidation may have been tools in our arsenal, but it could not have been done without the general acquiescence of the local population. Many countries prospered under British colonial rule. Many have become failed and corrupt states since the British left. Perhaps we could persuade some of these countries to accept British govenership once more in exchange for a robust legal system, development of advanced technology and sustainable ways of developing their natural resources.

Just a suggestion.


Apart from leaving out the bits about genocide, the participation of the Navy and in latter years, the RAF, that has to be an outright winner for the coveted "Most Divorced from Reality JB post Award".....

Back to Gideon however and his now all too familiar "black hole" in the economy.....and yet another fetching shot of George doing his "man of the people" act, this time with a baseball cap no less, rather than Hi Viz...still, as he's on a train at least this time there can be no "confusion" as to whether he's paid for his seat.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...orne-tax-rises

Whatever the result, the nation can thank Cameron for stripping bare any delusions that may have remained in some pockets of the UK populace as to how dysfunctional our politicians really are.....and the political fall out will affect everybody for many years to come.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 05:49
  #3507 (permalink)  
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Mr Chips,


It is rather peculiar that the British are so reviled by countries that used to be coloured pink on the map that their citizens chose to move here. Our institutions and practices were so unfit for purpose that they remain in place today. Where the Queen remains head of state, we see energetic, successful and progressive nations. Where this is not the case, we see corruption, wars, famine, poverty and abject failure.


Can you please explain why ? I am genuinely interested to read your views.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 06:14
  #3508 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding illegal immigrant labour - its a huge thriving (black)market especially in London.

From the food industries to building sites to cleaning its immense, you can pick up a brickie or plasterer for a fraction of the supposed min wage rate.
Any kebab house, indian restaurant etc will have its share, it the big draw for immigrants to come to the UK, no ID cards, cash in hand. You go to any building site the the hard labouring is being done by illegals.

If immigration is shut down, the flow of new employees will dry up, if you crack down on existing immigrants then prices will rocket. If the local kebab house has to start paying tax and min wage just watch.
Do you remember the days before before the Polish guys arrived in the building trade....UK builders ..well overpriced, sloppy, half arsed work. The Poles arrived and rejuvenated the UK industry.

Farming, there is no way in this universe you will get the local unemployed masses to work on farms for little more than the get on the dole currently, the option is to increase wages, say £22,000 for lifting cabbages etc. Watch as food prices soar couple that with the minor trade war with the EU if we leave as imports and exports become more expensive.

Once you hit food prices (or even shortages) any government is in serious trouble.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 06:15
  #3509 (permalink)  
 
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This Telegraph article is quite interesting.

EU referendum: Defiant senior Brussels diplomat warns UK not to over-estimate its importance

It shines a light on attitudes in Brussels towards the UK. A couple of key passages:

"The source said that a Leave vote will simply see the EU pull in new member states, something the Brexit campaign has consistently warned will happen if Britain votes to stay in the EU.

“The EU will have found an identity and will have moved forward, deepening in key areas like monetary union and defence,” the source said. The source dismissed Britain as “not a player” in core areas of the EU and said that people in Brussels now believe it will “be better to have a reluctant player outside the tent”.

“Britain already sits at the table and in most core areas, you are not a player,” the source said. “In other areas we wish you were a player, but you are hardly present. Some might say it will be better to have a reluctant player outside the tent."

And:

“We have had referendums in Denmark, there is one in Italy in October, all of these are existential crises and concern key issues. This is nothing new. The UK referendum is one of many,” he said.

“We wish and pray that it goes well, and that Britain stays, but we are expecting the worst. The likelihood is that things will go wrong, rather than go well. Life will have to go on afterwards.”

This says two things to me. Firstly that Europe resents the fact that we are not a core player, and isn't interested in taking account of any supposed influence from the UK if we remain. Secondly that Europe understands that life would have to go on afterwards.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 06:24
  #3510 (permalink)  
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Another recognition Labour has lost the working classes. But at heart the same delusion that is how they talk to them, rather than what they are telling them.

Grauniad: The crumbling of the remain vote shows how hollowed out Labour has become | Suzanne Moore | Opinion | The Guardian

Strange days indeed. The sky is low, the house is full of tiny spiders, my road is full of righteous remain posters, the polls are jumpy. A relative emails: “Have you taken to screaming out of the window at immigrants yet?”

It’s a joke. It’s not that funny. What will persuade me to vote remain? Being called a racist scumbag? The bourgeoisie is hugging itself close, convinced of its own case, repeating over and over the mantra that, overall, net immigration is beneficial, and anyone who doesn’t know that probably has tattoos of Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech all over them.......

The disconnect between the plethora of politicians and experts and financiers of the Remain or Die lobby and the voters who on the doorstep say politely, “Nah, mate, I want out,” is absolute..........The left could interact with this element. It recognised it. Now? It is tone deaf and increasingly myopic..

It can’t see that a steel plant closing, or the boarded-up shops of the east coast, or the eastern Europeans in the Fen towns picking peas in return for a box of chicken and chips have resulted in another type of anti-globalisation protest, which is, of course, Brexit. Wages are down, escape routes blocked, and yet the London political class venture to these half-empty shopping centres to bring glad tidings of the contribution of immigrants. They will care for us when we are old, and, anyway, there is a new Eritrean restaurant you should try. Loft conversion, you say? Here is the number of my Polish/Brazilian builders.

That immigration issue that we never talk about? We talk about it all the time – just in different tongues. What we don’t do is listen. If we did, then the crumbling of the Labour remain vote would not be surprising. What did we see happening at the last election? What do we think happened in Scotland? The complacency of thinking that you can take working-class votes for granted is absolute condescension. And still it is being played out. They know not what they do, these lower orders, these vessels of false consciousness who respond only to bribes.........

The current panic reveals a clique of embedded London journalists. The debate, such as it is, has been entirely antagonistic, veering between scaremongering and sanctimony. Often I wonder who is being addressed.........
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 06:42
  #3511 (permalink)  
 
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Drone Dog
Agreed that immigration brings down wages but this is not about whether certain immigration is good for the UK

Of course there is no dispute that immigrants adds to our society and makes for a more diverse and interesting and colourful spread but like in anything there is a point of diminishing returns where the negatives of immigration start to out weigh the positives

That point has been reached where we do not have the infrastructure to keep on taking people at the rate of a city every year or the welfare and benefits to cope

Where London already at bursting point is predicted to increase its population by 12%
At a certain point quality of life starts to drop with over population too


The remains only argument is to state there is no problem or to wave the race card
The EUs only solution is to tell us to build houses at the rate of 1 every 6 minutes

The levels of immigration we are experiencing from within Europe as well as from without are not sustainable

I have heard the word selective used as well as the quality of people we allow in
Both awful words to describe people some who through no fault of their own come with poor education and from very different cultures who do not integrate well

Having past the point of diminishing returns there is some argument about being more selective not on the quality of people but more on the people we need whether they be medical or fruit pickers

Some come from countries where human rights are poor where the law is the law of the streets! There is an argument that the abused become abusers and already in some EU countries there are big problems with gang rapes and crime
Integration is vital to any society and those found guilty should be thrown out with no recourse
What does the EU do ? Bans the press from identifying the country of the perpetrators and defends their rights in the EU courts

I am a reluctant Brexit and should we vote out I will not blame the citizens of the U.K but I will blame the EU for refusing to deal with and control problems as well as their refusal to allow individual countries to reject EU law which is damaging to an individual country on their single minded charge to the big state Europe which I for one don't want

Last edited by Pace; 16th Jun 2016 at 07:04.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 07:38
  #3512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Granite City Express View Post

I really don't understand the focus on immigration, since the majority of immigration is non-eu;
Might want to revisit your info sources
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 07:40
  #3513 (permalink)  

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Hey Granite, a few things of many about something you have brought up in your continuing attempts to belittle Britain.

Slave trading was taking place within Africa many decades before Europeans were involved. Africans themselves had previous history of selling their own and expanded this trading into the slave trade as we know it in modern history.
The Portugese were the first and greater of the slave traders, above the French, Spanish, Dutch and British. Great Britain was a term used by the Romans and the Empire that you loosely refer to saw us fighting the Dutch and Spanish well before any of the conflicts commonly used to decry the Empire.


The biggest question you must ask yourself while you compare 15th Century attitudes to today is; have you ever thought what the World would be like today if the slavery that you mentioned never took place?


If you choose to bring up history to defend your argument, at least use it to defend your argument.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 07:55
  #3514 (permalink)  

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Old 16th Jun 2016, 08:12
  #3515 (permalink)  
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Just because we leave the EU; just because we stop free movement of workers; just because we control immigration, it does not mean no immigrants.

We can still allow temporary workers to harvest crops; we can still enjoy our Latvian car washes; we can still employ our Polish builders. Perhaps we will also be able to import Filipino house maids, to replace Portuguese waiters with Indian or Filipino. To deport Albanians etc.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 08:20
  #3516 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Pace

I agree with what you say and we need to curtail immigration but I fee leaving will make no difference.

Western governments have decided immigration is a necessary thing, in my opinion its flawed thinking.
The argument being as our population ages we need fresh blood to work, pay taxes and sustain our growing elderly population.
Except the vast bulk of immigrants from the middle east /N Africa can't step into well paid jobs, the best we can hope for is that the manual labour type jobs might be covered.

It also begs the question on this small planet with finite resources is it really wise to promote a population explosion to keep the older generations in retirement.
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 08:42
  #3517 (permalink)  
 
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It also begs the question on this small planet with finite resources is it really wise to promote a population explosion to keep the older generations in retirement.
That is also a major problem ! We like many in developed countries are conditioned to accept the proverbial 2 children! We are conditioned to have both partners running careers and on the whole we expect to pay for our children's upbringing

Immigrant birth rates in the UK have outstripped traditional uk citizen birth rates where cultures are still of the mindset of producing as many children as possible and expecting the state to keep them as sadly number of children in a family increases with lower skill and income levels
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 08:59
  #3518 (permalink)  
 
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Silsoe Sid, you totally and utterly miss my point. The Industrial Revolution would have been impossible without the wealth generated by slave labour. Britain’s major ports, cities and canals were built on invested slave money. Several banks can trace their origins to the financing of the slave trade. Apart from the Barclays Brothers, who set up the bank, were slave traders, we also know of Barings and HSBC which can be traced back to Thomas Leyland’s banking house. The Bank of England also had close connections to the trade. That, however, was not my point.

What is the future of a post-Brexit Britain? What is the masterplan to "make Britain great again"?

I would be interested to know what UK business has been "suffocated by the EU". What exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU for British business?
What are the risks of leaving the EU?

As for this pish about belittling Britain, it is doing it all on its own. So far this campaign has ignited a nastiness that I have never seen in this country. Beating even the nastiness by the No side in the Scottish referendum.

Considering that 3/4 of my household is immigrant and in the last few weeks we have been reminded of that in the the most unpleasant way possible - step forward David Coburn UKIP MEP and utter wnaker - my opinion of this country has tumbled.

Here is a briefing note from the London School of Economics about immigrants http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf

The infrastructure is not crumbling because of immigration. Nor is the multi-trillion pound deficit the making of the EU. We need to look much closer to home for that. We can't build our own trains anymore, even though we invented them. Our aircraft carriers are built with cranes imported from China, as we can't build the cranes ourselves anymore. The carriers will carry aircraft built by someone else. Our MPA will be built by someone else since David Cameron scrapped our own. Our RFAs are built in Korea. Our electricity companies are are owned by Germans, French and Spaniards. Whats left of our steel industry is owned by Indians. "Our" car manufacturing is owned by French, German and Japanese companies.

So tell me, what is going to make Britain great again? How does that look like? What is the Plan B if African countries don't want us to run them?
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 09:16
  #3519 (permalink)  
 
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The song of Brexit:

“Keep, your ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Keep your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Don’t send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
For we will shut our the golden door!"
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Old 16th Jun 2016, 09:21
  #3520 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Granite City Express View Post

I would be interested to know what UK business has been "suffocated by the EU". What exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU for British business?
What are the risks of leaving the EU?
Watch this video if you want an indication of the effect on 3 industries of over a million EU migrants coming the the UK in the last 5 years.



The ONS forecast another 1 to 1.5 million more by 2024, you explain how that's good news for a country with around 1.7 million currently out of work.
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