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The Volkswagen pollution monitor defeat device.

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The Volkswagen pollution monitor defeat device.

Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:21
  #521 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
And he had calculated that to produce 1 ton of hydrogen, 8 tons of CO2 will be produced. How eco-friendly is that!
Quote

A single tree can absorb CO2 at a rate of 48 lb. ... An acre of trees absorbs enough CO2 over one year to equal the amount produced by driving a car 26,000 miles. Trees provide food and wildlife habitats. Planting trees remains one of the cheapest, most effective means of drawing excess CO2 from the atmosphere.

A kg of H can propel a car 66 miles.

I am going out else I would get my whiz wheel out. I note my quote states rate of absobtion but didn't mention what that rate was. For purposes of this question assume Day. Assume also that is 26k using a petrol powered vehicle. 😀
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 04:27
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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Pontius, the problem is that trees are temporary. They hold carbon for some time - anywhere from years to centuries depending on the tree (although there is a pretty close inverse correlation between how much carbon a tree absorbs and how long it lives - the faster a tree grows, the more carbon a tree absorbs per year, the shorter it's normal lifespan.
Once a tree dies, it gradually releases every gram of that carbon back into the ecosystem. It's a feel good that does next to nothing long term.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 08:25
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
And he had calculated that to produce 1 ton of hydrogen, 8 tons of CO2 will be produced. How eco-friendly is that!
Serious question: is that relevant? The mass, I mean.
Or is it simply a reflection of the differing molecular masses. ie 44 vs 2.

Recalculation and Edit

The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority says :

"In central station hydrogen production from natural gas reforming, the mass of CO2 emitted is 2.51 times greater than the mass of hydrogen produced."

This is quite a bit different from the 8 tons which you have mentioned.

By my rough calcs, a U.S. gallon of gasoline which weighs about 6.3 pounds, will produce about 20 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) when burned.
However, most of the weight of the CO2 doesn't come from the gasoline itself, but the oxygen in the air.
So, using the above, when one ton of gasoline is burned, then it will produce about 3.5 tons of CO2.

That is quite a bit more than 2.51 tons produced by that particular hydrogen production process.

Last edited by WingNut60; 10th Mar 2019 at 08:50.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 08:57
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW, the CO2 sequestration rate of trees is pretty well understood. A mature tree sequesters around 22kg of CO2 per year.

A mid-range diesel saloon car emits around 90g/CO2 per km. Therefore one mature tree will sequester about the same amount of CO2 per year as a diesel car of this category that's driven around 244km, or about 152 miles. For a car driven around 10,000 miles per year, around about 66 mature trees are needed to offset the CO2 emissions.

Unrelated curiosity: Our house has a certified CO2 emission rate of -900kg CO2/year, so is roughly equivalent to having about 40 mature trees growing on our plot, in terms of CO2. You couldn't fit 40 mature trees on the plot, so the house is more efficient at "sequestering" *** CO2 than a load of trees.


*** This is, of course, a load of bollocks. The house just generates a lot more zero CO2 electricity than it uses, so it reduces the amount of stuff that needs to be burned in power stations to supply others, and that's where the CO2 reduction comes from.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 09:05
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
A mid-range diesel saloon car emits around 90g/CO2 per km. Therefore one mature tree will sequester about the same amount of CO2 per year as a diesel car of this category that's driven around 244km, or about 152 miles. For a car driven around 10,000 miles per year, around about 66 mature trees are needed to offset the CO2 emissions.
So how would that look with an equivalent petrol engined car?
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 09:13
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
So how would that look with an equivalent petrol engined car?
Not that much different, I think. Just had a quick scan down a list of UK saloon cars and 90 to 110g/km seems to be pretty typical for mid-size cars.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 12:03
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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People get all worked up about cars and their emissions. Meanwhile it's the cows what done it:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ind...843.html%3famp

Worse than the entire transportation sector apparently.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 16:49
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Wingnut: Simple answer = No idea1 I was quoting my mate who is a chemist. I am clueless when it comes t chemistry. However, an alternative source (wikipedia) states " Depending on the quality of the feedstock (natural gas, rich gases, naphtha, etc.), one ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO2". It also explains the most common method of production begins with a process involving steam at around 1000C. Something has to provide the energy to produce steam at that temperature, so there is another source of CO2.
PN: The thing that always puzzled me about trees storing carbon is that carbon is going to be released back into the atmosphere at some point, either through decay or through burning so there is really no gain in terms of carbon reduction. And with the proliferation of wood chip burning power stations I wonder where the great benefit of using trees is? Speaking of absurd, I saw a programme on TV recently in which a small bulker was being loaded with wood chips at (I think) Immingham. The wood chips came from Scotland and were being exported to fuel a power station elsewhere. Have a guess at where "elsewhere" was. Gothenburg! I spent some time working in Sweden and I noticed the one thing they are not short of there is trees! Still, just to compound the absurdity, while Scottish wood chips go to Sweden, US wood chips cross the Atlantic regularly in much larger bulkers to fire Drax power station in England! So, in that carbon budget there is the amount of CO2 through burning the wood chips, plus the diesel burned by lorries getting the wood chips from Scotland and then the even larger amount of diesel consumed by the ships taking them on long journeys.
This all reminds me of when I was a teenager, arguing with someone about the change in railway locomotion being switched from coal to electricity. The argument for the switch was that the steam engines produced a lot of pollution. My argument was that the electricity had to be generated somewhere and in those days it was mostly at coal burning power stations. Therefore, the same, or similar, amount of pollution was going to be produced but now only in certain locations (at the power stations). At least with steam engines the pollution would be dispersed over large areas. And who knows, if there had been R&D into more efficient steam locomotives, what would that be like today?
Personally, I think the answer to the whole thing is nuclear power. With a few more nuclear power stations, the whole country could run carbon free with electric vehicles. (Remember when Calder Hall came on line, the promise was we could all have our electricity at about a farthing a fortnight?)
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 17:02
  #529 (permalink)  
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Kelvin, check on the CO2 produced in concrete production.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 19:16
  #530 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Not that much different, I think. Just had a quick scan down a list of UK saloon cars and 90 to 110g/km seems to be pretty typical for mid-size cars.
Really? Are many mid sized cars in group A or B? My petrol engined small car (Euro 6 emissions, 1200 cc) does up to 55 mpg and as a group C car (120g/km) is taxed at £30 per year.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 08:37
  #531 (permalink)  
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Just when you think it couldn’t get any worse for Volkswagen......

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...-pun-l07th3675

Volkswagen boss Herbert Diess sorry for Nazi pun

The chief executive of Volkswagen is facing calls to resign after a play on words using the Nazi slogan over the Auschwitz gates. Herbert Diess apologised for the pun “Ebit macht frei” — a reference to the infamous Third Reich motto “Arbeit macht frei” or “work will set you free” — which he made during a speech to hundreds of managers. Ebit is an acronym for earnings before interest and tax.

The attempt at humour caused particular offence. During the Second World War the carmaker relied on about 15,000 slave labourers from concentration camps.

Mr Diess, 60, made the remark at Volkswagen’s headquarters in Wolfsburg, Lower Saxony, on Tuesday. The speech was intended to rally his company’s flagging spirits after he announced that it would cut 7,000 jobs in its drive to reduce costs and turn to the manufacture of electric cars.

Mr Diess had already been under pressure over his company’s strategic gamble and an unprovoked attack on the energy giant RWE, which he criticised for opening a coalmine in ancient woodland.

Volkswagen, founded at Hitler’s behest, derived up to 80 per cent of its workers from forced labour camps during the war. The company is acutely sensitive to the charge that it has forgotten the burden of its history.

One manager at the speech said that Mr Diess used the Nazi allusion twice. “If he had only said it once then maybe it could have just slipped out,” the employee told Der Spiegel. “But he repeated it.”

Mr Diess conceded yesterday that he had made an “unfortunate choice of words”. He said: “It was in no way my intention to put this statement in the wrong context. At the time, I didn’t think for a moment that this [interpretation] was possible. I’m extremely sorry if I hurt anyone’s feelings.”

The statement did little to appease critics. The Rheinische Postnewspaper in Düsseldorf urged Volkswagen’s board to consider whether Mr Diess was the right man to lead the company. “It is alarming that the head of [Volkswagen], whose beginnings as the Beetle factory were already closely tied with the Nazis, found these words . . . in a motivational speech,” a columnist wrote.

“One wonders what Herbert Diess learnt in his history lessons. Did he never see pictures of the entrance to the Auschwitz concentration camp to which the Nazis had attached this mocking phrase to torment their victims?”





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Old 15th Mar 2019, 10:02
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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Mein Gott!

This guy is a moron! Social intelligence zero!

The town where the car is built, Wolfsburg, is one of those "from the ground up" new towns like Milton Keynes. It was built primarily to house the VW factory workers. Why "Wolfsburg," you may ask? "Wolf" was Hitler's nickname so that the town is taken by many to have been named after Hitler.

That is just another urban legend: The Brits merely ordered it renamed from "Stadt des KdF-Wagens bei Fallersleben," naming it instead after Schloß Wolfsburg, a nearby medieval castle. Still, the association with Hitler tends to stick in some minds.

The original Beetle began as the Volkswagen (People's Car) but was then lumbered with the clumsy name of Kraft durch Freude Wagen; KdF-Wagen (Strength through Joy Car), by, yes, Hitler.

That somewhat notorious program, "Strength through Joy," was meant to make for a strong because happy Nazi German workforce. (You did not have to be a Nazi to participate in the program, but you were expected to gain enthusiasm for the Nazi party by taking part in KdF activities.) Part of KdF was deserving German workers getting their own little cars with which they could tour the new Greater Germany on the already existent Autobahn. (Another misconception: That highway program was not started by the Nazis.) That never happened. They paid in their 5 Reichsmarks per week, serious money at that time, but nobody got any of those cars. There were a few hand-made examples of the Beetle, driven mostly by Nazi big-wigs, but the factory soon shifted to war production, mostly making the Kubelwagen, the "Bucket Car," and the Schwimmwagen, the "Swim Car," an amphibious version of the "Bucket Car," both for the Nazi war machine.

So, the VW Beetle itself began as a confidence scheme; the workers paid in but never got their cars! Recently we got another confidence scheme, the diesel scandal, and now this clanging reference to Auschwitz, from the new boss of VW! What ever next?

*
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 08:18
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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Work more, earn more...now do I get accused of insensitivity. Generation snowflake in all its glory. He did not suggest opening a concentration camp ironically a British invention, he was cutting 7000 jobs and was trying to rally his staff's morale.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 09:16
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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Insensitivity, you?

Think about that one for a moment: Diess, running a company that got its start as a Nazi party program and built a lot of vehicles using slave labor, tries to "rally his staff's morale," by making a punning back-reference to a notorious Nazi lie, that the prisoners of Auschwitz could gain their freedom through work. (Actually, the work was meant to kill them just a bit more slowly than being gassed; the only way out of that hellish place was meant to be by going up the chimney.)

Yes, DD, that is exactly what the VW was all about to begin with, "rally[ing] his [Hitler's] staff's morale."

As you may have noticed, VW management managed to create a monstrous liability for the company, such that now these workers, workers who had nothing to do with this colossal blunder, are the ones who have to pay for it by losing their jobs. The guy at the top, Piëch, who created this mess in the first place? He is in the Automobile Hall of Fame, and I do not think he feels much for the workers who have to walk the plank, aside from thinking, "Should have worked harder in school, and been born into wealth."

Last edited by chuks; 16th Mar 2019 at 15:14.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 10:39
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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The outrage, I did not realise the Nazi party was still running things in Germany if you want to climb on the outrage bus over an event that happened some 80 odd years ago I see our brainwashing has worked. Things that outrage me, the West bombing Syria and the continuing war in Yemen murdering and yet nothing, silence over events happening right now.
I can dig through history and find much worse atrocities that never get a mention, have a look at Belgium's King Leopold and his adventures in Africa.
King Leopold II - The Man who killed more than 10 million people, yet is not not seen as repulsive | DocumentaryTube

Grow up, VW is a modern automotive manufacturer and their chief made a speech to his workforce. We live in an age of peak idiocy and outrage. A kid from Sweden organises climate protest and is hailed as the next saviour, she offers no solutions. How about turning the heating in her school down a few degrees or dumping the school bus and walking errr nope and yet she has just been nominated for the Nobel peace prize.
By the way, I see you are 71 from your profile so you only caught the aftermath as Germany rebuild itself. Focus on current wars and let the past remain in the past.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 14:36
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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DD, do try to pay attention to the bleedin' obvious.

Diess, a German automobile executive, not a historian, made a very clumsy pun that did not, as per your injunction "let the past remain in the past." Since his own company, VW AG, has too-close connection with that same past, this mistake of his, calling up the past, was especially remarkable. That's about it, though, really. Other than that it's just that we bought a Golf VII with a diesel engine, about a month before the scandal broke. No big deal, that, unless you are into math and can work out what 15% of €30,000 comes to.

Don't worry about your seat on the Outrage Bus, DD. The damned thing is like the Tardis, sized like a bus on the outside; room inside for a multitude. If you want to get your own knickers in a twist over Yemen and Syria and "silence," (really?), that is fine. We will award you full marks and a seat right at the front of the Outrage Bus. You can even drive it if you like! Don't mind me, sat somewhere towards the back, still not happy about what went on during the Holocaust.

King Leopold II is not repulsive, you say? That's ... interesting. He certainly repels me, but then I am not Belgian.

I guess you never read any of Vachel Lindsay's pomes in school. We got this one:

Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost
Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
Hear how the demons chuckle and yell
Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.



Unfortunately, there is also this:

Fat black bucks in a wine-barrel room,
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable,
Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table,
Pounded on the table,
Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom,
Hard as they were able,
Boom, boom, BOOM,

Totally non-PC, nu?

Then there is the way that I used Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness as the subject for a thesis. He did not seem to find the way that King Leopold II was running things in the Congo all that attractive, but, no, he did not come right out and say that the man, whose name never came up as such, was "repulsive." That was the impression you got from reading the book, though.

When I showed up in Germany I "only caught the aftermath." Indeed! It took me a while to figure out what was going on here: Lots of VW Beetles, but no Nazis! "Where are all the flags, the ones with the swastikas?" I asked, when people just looked at me.










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