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Bali 9, Aye or Nae

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Bali 9, Aye or Nae

Old 28th Apr 2015, 20:30
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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While there may be rights and wrongs about whether a state has the death penalty, the fact remains that some states openly and blatantly advertise (in ports and airports for instance) that they have execution as a sanction against certain crimes. That's the law in THEIR country.

There isn't much point in faux anger about the rights or wrongs when someone chooses to try and get away with one of those crimes and doesn't beat the odds. It can be argued that they chose the path that they took and have now paid the advertised price for their actions.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:06
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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And if the state then is refused anything in the way of aid - or, in the case of Brazil, the recognition of the Indonesian Ambassador - then they have no just cause for complaint.

I believe the Victorians called it "You've made your bed - now lie on it".

And not to forget the Indonesian military actions amounting really to terrorism in the 1960s...
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:18
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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I don't have any strong views on the sentence itself (although opposed the death sentence as a matter of principal). Law enforcement, within reason, is the sovereign right of Indonesia. If we are to raise issue with them, what about all the other nationalities locked up on such charges, and what about our lack of noise each time China or Saudi Arabia execute?

What really bothers me is the utter pointlessness of it all. None of this sorry episode need ever have happened. If the world simply adopted less puritanical, more enlightened, evidence based and harm reduction oriented policies towards drugs, that is.

There will be no less, and certainly no shortage of, heroin available in Jakarta tomorrow, or forever after, no matter how many they execute and imprison. The trade will continue and will always continue. All these laws achieve is to ensure 1) the end user consumes the most expensive and unhealthiest version of their substance they can possibly get, 2) that the trail of that drug from its point of production to its point of consumption is dominated by illegal entities (i.e. gangs) bringing them huge profits, 3) that instead of viable income from proper regulation the massive costs in policing ("a war on drugs" lets not forget) consumes vast resources, and 4) that all along the way are littered the bodies of unfortunates (victims or culprits) at every turn.

Accepting that individuals choose to consume drugs, from caffeine, tobacco and alcohol, to sedative drugs and sleeping pills, to pot, E and cocaine, and meth, crack and heroin, there is no need to even make drug trafficking so lucrative as it is nor the product consumed as hellishly dangerous (iv opiate use was largely safe, though still undesirable, prior to prohibition, as was alcohol in the 1920s).
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:21
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I guess the only obvious way you can gauge how Aus feels about all this is to monitor the Bali holiday cancellations

If travel numbers were to plummet would that not be a strong statement

My guess, there will be no change
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:24
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I reiterate, he killed 21 people! Corby and the Bali 9 killed nobody.
Indeed. And strangely, I believe an American girl and her boyfriend were just found guilty of murdering her mother and packing her body in to a suitcase, in Indonesia. Their punishment? 10 years.

Why drug crimes should be considered worse, even just as bad as, murder is mindboggling.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Now we have to put up with the F$#%ing media laying it up like some national tragedy.

Yes looking around the world I can see how its the most tragic thing happening.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:27
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Cockpit Door-Closed said:


The Australian government's pleas for leniency in regard to the death sentence were brushed aside. They should now reconsider their foreign aid to Indonesia
No. Just cancel it all. And ship all the illegal would be immigrants straight back there.

If Indonesia is so wonderful, why are there so many boat loads wanting to go to Australia?

OK, so the Australian National Anthem has

" For those who come across the seas,
We've boundless plains to spare"

But that doesn't apply any more - it was meant for those who had wanted skills and would WORK, not claim benefits.

OK, OZ, there's a pommy bast*ard who supports your stance....
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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If our PM had the intestinal fortitude he'd recall our ambassador, and aid wouldd quickly dry up as well.......but it's all politics...and the Aust Gummint will be all...professionally outraged..is the term??

And yes, no doubt all those that stood in town squares with candles, will be burning the midnight oil on their next trip to Bali....

What we should learn (and should know already) is that the Indos hate us... this saga by the new President has made it abundantly clear....the military presence moving them from Bali to whatever alphabet island it was, the denial of their ministers in the end, the last minute pardon of the Phillipino Lady....

They hate us, and used these two to rub our noses in it......but, we'll keep giving 'em aid...

Should have 'converted' to Islam...they may have had a chance...cynical?
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:48
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I abhor the use of the death penalty, and would strongly resist any attempt to re-introduce it here in the UK.

I do, however, respect that other countries have an inalienable right to impose whatever laws they wish within their own borders, and if anyone wishes to travel to those countries they have to accept those laws.

I worked in the ME for a time, and was, like others I suspect, shocked at first by the difference between local laws and those in the UK, and in the way the law was administered. I didn't much like it, but had to accept that when working there I was bound by their laws, in the same way that one of their citizens coming to the UK would be bound by our laws.

The human race has long understood that when in a foreign country one has to abide by the laws and customs of that country. The saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" purports to come from Saint Ambrose, in the 4th century.

Indonesia has widely publicised it's very tough laws on drugs for many years. Anyone going there cannot possible claim they didn't know that the death penalty applies to drug crimes. If someone decides they are going to chance it, and smuggle drugs through Indonesia anyway, then they know full well that they are, literally, playing Russian roulette.

The bottom line here is that if you don't want to risk facing a firing squad, don't smuggle drugs into Indonesia. The same goes for other crimes in other countries. If you don't want to face execution, then don't murder someone in one of the 32 states of the US that still have the death sentence.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:54
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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No. Just cancel it all. And ship all the illegal would be immigrants straight back there.

I agree Radeng!.....100% .....won'thappen though......Oz gummint will dream up some new unaffordable middle class wefare, the ever compliant media will focus on that for them.....and chan and sukamarun.....will be a trivia question beneath a beer bottle top......

They're Barbarians, no doubt, as are the Saudis that just executed the Indos in Saudia......but then you can't say you didn't know....big goddam signs everywhere warning you of the death penalty....(should be signs of warning about becoming a political play thing)

Now what's a common theme between the Indos and the Saudis? ......religion of peace anyone??
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 22:51
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Now what's a common theme between the Indos and the Saudis? ......religion of peace anyone??
How about two of the most enthusiastic users of the death penalty, China and North Korea? Hardly Islamic states!
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 22:54
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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There are plenty of people locked up in Aus who I would gladly have done a prisoner exchange for those two and had strapped to a plank. Daniel Morcombe's killer, the young teacher's killer, the nurse's killer, the young toddler from NSW' s killer (when he/she is found/convicted). All perpetrated their crime on someone who had no choice. A drug user, at some point, makes a decision that they are going to use that drug. Horrible though the results may be, they are not blameless. As I said, the executions in Indonesia are to satisfy a local political position. They will do nothing to quell the alledged reason, to prevent drug use in Indonesia.
As for the faux outrage from the latte set, I notice they weren't too concerned about the other seven to be shot, just "our aussie boys". It seems the death penalty isn't too bad, as long as it's not applied to Australians. We practically cheered when they shot the Bali Bombers.
Based on their usual attention span, in a couple of days, it'll be "Bali who?".
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 23:24
  #53 (permalink)  
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Many drug users (including alcoholics) acquire their habit and then have little reasoning about how they achieve their fix - lying and stealing.

Such addicts are sometimes recruited to act as couriers, and (it must be assumed) become smugglers - either under duress from their pushers, or through the demands of their habit.

I'm not seeking to excuse their behaviour, just to point out that they become desperate and, therefore, cease to reason about the possible consequences. A more rational person would see that getting caught was a possibility and the result of that would be fatal.

Of course there are cases of unwitting mules - the more unwitting the less the chance of detection and arrest, and these poor folk are victims.

However, I believe that there are two British girls in South America (Peru?) who initially pleaded innocence and then ultimately confessed that they were aware of what they were doing - they claimed they had been kidnapped in Ibiza and forced to go on a drugs run to Peru by Colombian gangsters who threatened them and their families.
But it emerged that they had willingly agreed to smuggle the drugs in return for cash after meeting the dealers on the Spanish party island.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 23:27
  #54 (permalink)  
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On the subject of the effect that drugs can have on addicts, read the case of Lian Watson:-
Lian Watson died after injecting herself with horse tranquiliser she stole from vet | Daily Mail Online
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 23:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Why drug crimes should be considered worse, even just as bad as, murder is mindboggling.
Perhaps thats your short coming. Crimes in regards to perceived moral issues being treated harshly is not unusual and very logical. Note I didn't say anything about right or wrong.

No. Just cancel it all.
What and punish all the poor people of Indonesia for there government carrying and executing their laws, not for a couple of convicted drug dealers.

And ship all the illegal would be immigrants straight back there.

We already do that, "Stop the boats"
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 23:50
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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To believe the death penalty has no deterrent effect is to believe people, even criminals don't respond to incentives; that they don't measure their own best interests. BS. There is loads of research to the opposite,

Using a panel data set of over 3,000 counties from 1977 to 1996, Professors Hashem Dezhbakhsh, Paul R. Rubin, and Joanna M. Shepherd of Emory University found that each execution, on average, results in 18 fewer murders.[17] Using state-level panel data from 1960 to 2000, Professors Dezhbakhsh and Shepherd were able to compare the relationship between executions and murder incidents before, during, and after the U.S. Supreme Court's death penalty moratorium.[18] They found that executions had a highly significant negative relationship with murder incidents. Additionally, the implementation of state moratoria is associated with the increased incidence of murders.

Separately, Professor Shepherd's analysis of monthly data from 1977 to 1999 found three important findings.[19]

First, each execution, on average, is associated with three fewer murders. The deterred murders included both crimes of passion and murders by intimates.

Second, executions deter the murder of whites and African-Americans. Each execution prevents the murder of one white person, 1.5 African-Americans, and 0.5 persons of other races.

Third, shorter waits on death row are associated with increased deterrence. For each additional 2.75-year reduction in the death row wait until execution, one murder is deterred.
GF
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 00:56
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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You don't execute someone to deter other people, you execute someone as a punishment for a particular crime. If it happens to have a deterrence value then that's a bonus. To chase the bonus value will just send us back to the dark ages.
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 01:11
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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And did the learned professors calculate how many murders the execution of an innocent person prevents?

After an excellent landing etc...
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 01:23
  #59 (permalink)  
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I don't imagine that a would-be murderer considers that 'only' life in prison will result rather than being hanged/shot/poisoned if caught.

I would imagine that most murders are committed on impulse (though some are, undoubtedly, 'planned').
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 01:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Once again we witness humans putting humans above all other species by saying humans should not be executed,

It would be interesting if animals such as dogs, cats, wildlife were given an opportunity to have their say. I would expect the reply to be along the lines of,"What about us? Don't we deserve to have a life too?" We style ourselves as the intelligent species and have the power to destroy any other living thing without question, hence the 5th mass extinction.

As far as I've found, there is no reformed drug trader. They always go back to their trade as it is lucrative, easy, and masses of customers.

This morning at 3:30am, 29th April, 2015, the Bali Duo received their just desserts and were executed. I may be an atheist but for once I'll quote the scriptures and say, "An eye for an eye".

By the way, this was not their first time being caught.
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