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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 18th Dec 2019, 20:52
  #19961 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,349
Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post


The cult of personality reminds me of North Korea, or Iraq under Saddam, or the USSR. Heck, even Iranians protest against their leaders.


Perhaps you didn't see the political indoctrination occurring among Chairman Barack's adoring myrmidons. They even stooped to "indoctrinating" little children. This reminds me of thousands of mind-numbed robots waving little reds books. The fawning adoration of Obama is at least as bad as what is alleged for Trump.

It's time to realize this is nothing but lust for political power at any cost regardless of the party. Best to ignore it since neither you nor I will affect the outcome.

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Old 18th Dec 2019, 22:09
  #19962 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by bafanguy View Post
Perhaps you didn't see the political indoctrination occurring among Chairman Barack's adoring myrmidons. They even stooped to "indoctrinating" little children. This reminds me of thousands of mind-numbed robots waving little reds books. The fawning adoration of Obama is at least as bad as what is alleged for Trump.

It's time to realize this is nothing but lust for political power at any cost regardless of the party. Best to ignore it since neither you nor I will affect the outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ty7WU872Lk
Thanks but youíve suggested that the political situation in your country transcends party. What youíre saying is, regardless of political persuasion, your President is now a Dear Leader and in the USA there is nothing that you can do about it?
The founding fathers must be squirming.
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Old 18th Dec 2019, 22:30
  #19963 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
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There is some truth to your point, Toady. Each side is worshipping their own Dear Leader.

Oh for the days of more modest presidents, like Truman, or Eisenhower. However, I suspect they had their haters too.
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Old 18th Dec 2019, 23:45
  #19964 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
...youíve suggested that the political situation in your country transcends party. What youíre saying is, regardless of political persuasion, your President is now a Dear Leader and in the USA there is nothing that you can do about it?
I suggest it's symptomatic of party as it's always been in this country (and yours, by the way). We now hear much more about it...all the time because of electronic media. This feeds the frenzy.

At NO POINT did I say "...President is now a Dear Leader..." anymore than Comrade Obama was Dear Leader. Both are opposite sides of the same coin.

All the individual can do is cast one vote per election. The individual vote is a pretty weak effort.

I understand you resent the USA as a baseline attitude and hate Trump. Fair enough.

I'm quite entertained at being educated by Eutopians who know everything there is to know about American government, governance, history and culture. Keep talking. It's quite enlightening.

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Old 18th Dec 2019, 23:55
  #19965 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bafanguy View Post
I suggest it's symptomatic of party as it's always been in this country (and yours, by the way). We now hear much more about it...all the time because of electronic media. This feeds the frenzy.

At NO POINT did I say "...President is now a Dear Leader..." anymore than Comrade Obama was Dear Leader. Both are opposite sides of the same coin.

All the individual can do is cast one vote per election. The individual vote is a pretty weak effort.

I understand you resent the USA as a baseline attitude and hate Trump. Fair enough.

I'm quite entertained at being educated by Eutopians who know everything there is to know about American government, governance, history and culture. Keep talking. It's quite enlightening.
[I understand you resent the USA as a baseline attitude and hate Trump. Fair enough./QUOTE]

Actually completely incorrect. Itís ok to disagree without hate. Try it.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 07:28
  #19966 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
So what you perceive as excessive deference is simply noting the punishment doesnít fit the crime, if there was a crime to begin with.
I take issue only with this part of your post. Whether or not there was a crime to begin with - nether impeachment nor removal from office are a punishment.

It is a human-resources question - should this employee of the American people be fired?

The Founders saw fit to include two Constitutional ways of doing that - removal by way of an election, or removal by way of impeachment. But in either case, the subject is not at risk of life, or limb, or loss of liberty or property. They are not punished, they are simply discharged.

To Uncle Fred - one significant (but not the only) reason that the elected ranks of the GOP have not broken with Trump, especially as regards the Impeachment fight, is that they are elected - and scared of their own voters. Who are in many cases strongly pro-Trump. If the elected representatives oppose Trump in any significant way, they risk being "primaried" or opposed in the party nominee-selection process, by someone who will adhere more closely to Trump.

And if one believes in small-d democracy, that is generally a good thing. Representatives are supposed to represent their constituents' views.

On the other hand, if one believes in small-r republicanism, the idea is that the voters choose the wisest heads - and then leave them free to use their heads in governing, without being afraid of "mob rule" removing them. And if they are good politicians, they'll be able to persuade their voters they have made the right decisions, based on evidence and reason.

In any case, the rank-and-file GOP voters clearly still support Trump (percentages are running over 80% in favor.) The real question would be why that is true. And obgraham might give us the market-report yet again - except that that rising economic tide has done nothing to improve Trump's standing with independents or Democrats (rich or middle-class or working class or poor). Apparently, the old Clinton "It's the economy, Stupid!" doctrine is no longer as powerful as it - perhaps - once was.

One has to look at a much more complex picture than that - there are the tribalist Republicans who just figure anything that scores points against Democrats is a win; there are the populists who figure anything that gives the elites(*) "a good kicking" (BREXIT-style) is a good thing; there are the religous conservatives; there are the business conservatives; there are the philosophical "small government" conservatives and libertarians. With or without some overlap.

(*) although who constitutes "the elite" is never clearly defined - the money-elite? The business-elite? The knowledge-elite? The education-elite? The celebrity-elite? The power-elite?
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 08:15
  #19967 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
Itís ok to disagree without hate. Try it.
Uh, ok...I'll try that. Thank you for your input.

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Old 19th Dec 2019, 14:20
  #19968 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
I take issue only with this part of your post. Whether or not there was a crime to begin with - nether impeachment nor removal from office are a punishment.

It is a human-resources question - should this employee of the American people be fired?

The Founders saw fit to include two Constitutional ways of doing that - removal by way of an election, or removal by way of impeachment. But in either case, the subject is not at risk of life, or limb, or loss of liberty or property. They are not punished, they are simply discharged.

To Uncle Fred - one significant (but not the only) reason that the elected ranks of the GOP have not broken with Trump, especially as regards the Impeachment fight, is that they are elected - and scared of their own voters. Who are in many cases strongly pro-Trump. If the elected representatives oppose Trump in any significant way, they risk being "primaried" or opposed in the party nominee-selection process, by someone who will adhere more closely to Trump.

And if one believes in small-d democracy, that is generally a good thing. Representatives are supposed to represent their constituents' views.

On the other hand, if one believes in small-r republicanism, the idea is that the voters choose the wisest heads - and then leave them free to use their heads in governing, without being afraid of "mob rule" removing them. And if they are good politicians, they'll be able to persuade their voters they have made the right decisions, based on evidence and reason.

In any case, the rank-and-file GOP voters clearly still support Trump (percentages are running over 80% in favor.) The real question would be why that is true. And obgraham might give us the market-report yet again - except that that rising economic tide has done nothing to improve Trump's standing with independents or Democrats (rich or middle-class or working class or poor). Apparently, the old Clinton "It's the economy, Stupid!" doctrine is no longer as powerful as it - perhaps - once was.

One has to look at a much more complex picture than that - there are the tribalist Republicans who just figure anything that scores points against Democrats is a win; there are the populists who figure anything that gives the elites(*) "a good kicking" (BREXIT-style) is a good thing; there are the religous conservatives; there are the business conservatives; there are the philosophical "small government" conservatives and libertarians. With or without some overlap.

(*) although who constitutes "the elite" is never clearly defined - the money-elite? The business-elite? The knowledge-elite? The education-elite? The celebrity-elite? The power-elite?
Impeachment and in theory removal from office are not punishment in your world, gotcha.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 15:59
  #19969 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Impeachment and in theory removal from office are not punishment in your world, gotcha.

In the eyes of the impeached , it is.

In the eyes of the electorate it is an actionable action, subject to confirmation in a more global vote.

In my view Trump will only leave when a better person survives a more global vote.

I really don't like the current actions and prefer that congress simply act together in both houses to call for another election if they don't want to wait.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 19:04
  #19970 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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... congress simply act together in both houses to call for another election...
How would that be even remotely constitutional? We elect a president, not a prime minister.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 20:07
  #19971 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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prefer that congress simply act together in both houses to call for another election if they don't want to wait.
Indeed, indicates a complete lack of understanding of the US system.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 20:44
  #19972 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Indeed, indicates a complete lack of understanding of the US system.

Exactly !,
I kook to the future and not to yesterday
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 21:25
  #19973 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Thank you Pattern for the explanation - much appreciated! You do tease out an interesting point as to representatives doing just that--representing as opposed to everyone in a Swiss Canton dropping a marble into the urn (so to speak) and the largest number wins.

For the other respondents, I perhaps worded my question poorly but Pattern divined what I was getting at - not just the impeachment that has Republicans in lock step with whatever the president says but everything from trade, foreign, and economic policy. Could it be, as Pattern hints at, that these voters actually think and believe this way vice just using him as a transaction?

Btw OB, did you get a chance to read through Trump's letter to Ms. Pelosi? Do you still stand by every line being true even though that is patently not the case? Just curious...
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 22:10
  #19974 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Yes, Fred, I read the letter. It is excellent. Please point out some significant "wrong" bits.

Not just things you disagree with, or that he was one number off on his EC count.
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 22:20
  #19975 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Oh for the days of more modest presidents, like Truman, or Eisenhower. However, I suspect they had their haters too.
Harry Truman was quite explicit in his dislike for, and later his hatred for, both Ike and his VP Richard Nixon.
\(My source is the book Plain Speaking, that was more or less a series of Interviews with HS Truman before he died
"An Oral Biography, by Harry S Truman and Merle Miller" .
Read it in the early 70's.

For Uncle Fred:
Trump was at war with the GOP during the primaries of 2015 and 2016. He ran roughshod over it. And it worked.
He seems to have a core of pretty solid supporters inside the party, and gets the support of another group of GOP who are in the old position of
"he's an arsehole, but he's our arsehole"
as they proceed in their political stuff.
I won't comment further, and I find your framing of that as obeisance to be hyperbole, at best.
I am not sure what level of deep support he has beyond "he's against them" and "them" is Pelosi and Company.
One of the more remarkable aspects I find about the current U.S. political situation and Trump is the staggering level of obeisance that he enjoys up and down his party ranks.
What I find among people whom I talk to is that those where were solid Tea Party members tend to be his strongest and most vocal supporters.
That seems to me to reflect where he gets most of his support within the GOP as well ... but that's my guess. No hard data to offer you.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 04:08
  #19976 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Lonewolf

Perhaps poorly worded on my part, but I used obeisance with the intent of being less inflammatory than other words that are at the ready.

I can check the old OED when I get home, but looking at definition #2 on Dictionary.com I see the definition being worded as deference. It is in this light that I employed the word as Mr. Trump's rank and file certainly is deferential. It is this deference on any and all subjects that leaves me bewildered as different views arise all the time in even the smallest organizations not to mention something the size of a major U.S. political party.

Your explanation however, of this fealty/loyalty being most fervent in those who were in the Tea Party faction helps in understanding this phenomenon.

As always, I appreciate your measured and thoughtful replies.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 11:40
  #19977 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
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Viewed dispassionately as an outsider, the impeachment exercise appears to be for the consumption of the Democratic Party faithful.

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Old 20th Dec 2019, 15:51
  #19978 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
Viewed dispassionately as an outsider, the impeachment exercise appears to be for the consumption of the Democratic Party faithful.
What else could it be". Every move by either politician is now viewed as one-sided by the press who stoke our fears. There is just no place to find solace in our minds unless we find someone to talk alike

eventually this will be solved by a more dictatorial leader under a different government after a pretext and martial law is declared.

you reap what you sow
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 16:48
  #19979 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
There is just no place to find solace in our minds unless we find someone to talk alike
The advent of the 24 hour news cycle signaled the end of independent thinking. As you allude, thereís safe place for group thought no matter ones brand of politics. Get rid of CNN, FOX and MSNBC and the level of vitriol would lessen significantly.
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Old 20th Dec 2019, 16:52
  #19980 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
The advent of the 24 hour news cycle signaled the end of independent thinking. As you allude, thereís safe place for group thought no matter ones brand of politics. Get rid of CNN, FOX and MSNBC and the level of vitriol would lessen significantly.
Add twitter/Facebook et al to that group.
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