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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 26th Mar 2019, 01:35
  #17881 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
No. In that case the prosecutors decide their is sufficient evidence for the accusation was brought to trial. Where the jury can decide on a verdict of innocent, not proven or guilty. In this case the AG has stated in writing the evidence proved not even justify any charges being brought.
Ah, good point, and thanks for the correction.

racedo:
Jimmy Carter as a fount of all that is true? Uh, no. Not buying that box of soap. No burning bush there.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 02:16
  #17882 (permalink)  
 
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@fltlt Menh - I'm not aware of lies that have been disproved, from either the media or any of the politicians I paid attention to. There were many suppositions of the "what if?" type from the media. There were commentators' legal opinions this way or that way (which until adjudicated in a court of law or the Senate, remain just opinions). I don't remember a "Mark Slackmeyer moment" (from Doonesbury, Watergate era, the college radio host screaming "Mitchell is guilty. That's guilty, guilty, guilty, GUILTY!")

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7ca3580019ab

Opinions are not statements of fact, and thus cannot ever be lies (A statement of fact proven to be untrue).

"My" politicians - that is, those who I can actually vote in or out, mostly kept their heads down on Trump's legal situation and Mueller's investigation. Didn't hear them say anything, including the Republicans, one way or the other. Mueller played it too close to the vest. Sure, the Colorado Dems campaigned on "We need to get rid of Trump!" - but again, that is opinion. (One I share, one others don't).

I'm also not aware that anything has been "proved wrong" either. At this point we still don't know the facts - we just have a "Barr Letter" giving the AG's opinion (and a few sentence fragments from Muellers own work). It looks like there simply is insufficient evidence regarding conspiracy between the Trump campaign with the Russians - which was always quite possible as far as I was concerned. And was never stated as known fact by anyone I'm aware of (except a dunken George Papadopoulos).

If you think that the words and opinions of an Attorney General are always to be taken at face value and as authoritative proof, I have six words for you to consider (from whatever your point of view): "Loretta Lynch - Eric Holder - John Mitchell."

Say intentions.

Last edited by pattern_is_full; 26th Mar 2019 at 02:32.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 02:30
  #17883 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
That's one way to parse the currently released results. McCain was a centrist. That's why a lot of farther right GOP sorts really disliked him. Your hyperbole does you no credit.
I wouldn't call him a war monger, but do note McCain’s proclivity to urge the use US forces in harms way. One’s political beliefs are not an accurate barometer of their beliefs wrt using the military force. Compare and contrast she Clinton and McCain. Politically diverse but hawkish on using the military.


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Old 26th Mar 2019, 03:09
  #17884 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
@fltlt Menh - I'm not aware of lies that have been disproved, from either the media or any of the politicians I paid attention to. There were many suppositions of the "what if?" type from the media. There were commentators' legal opinions this way or that way (which until adjudicated in a court of law or the Senate, remain just opinions). I don't remember a "Mark Slackmeyer moment" (from Doonesbury, Watergate era, the college radio host screaming "Mitchell is guilty. That's guilty, guilty, guilty, GUILTY!")

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7ca3580019ab

Opinions are not statements of fact, and thus cannot ever be lies (A statement of fact proven to be untrue).

"My" politicians - that is, those who I can actually vote in or out, mostly kept their heads down on Trump's legal situation and Mueller's investigation. Didn't hear them say anything, including the Republicans, one way or the other. Mueller played it too close to the vest. Sure, the Colorado Dems campaigned on "We need to get rid of Trump!" - but again, that is opinion. (One I share, one others don't).

I'm also not aware that anything has been "proved wrong" either. At this point we still don't know the facts - we just have a "Barr Letter" giving the AG's opinion (and a few sentence fragments from Muellers own work). It looks like there simply is insufficient evidence regarding conspiracy between the Trump campaign with the Russians - which was always quite possible as far as I was concerned. And was never stated as known fact by anyone I'm aware of (except a dunken George Papadopoulos).

If you think that the words and opinions of an Attorney General are always to be taken at face value and as authoritative proof, I have six words for you to consider (from whatever your point of view): "Loretta Lynch - Eric Holder - John Mitchell."

Say intentions.

No intentions at all PIF, just genuine curiosity as to the feelings of obviously vehement opponents of all things Trump and your/there feelings as to the outcome of the Mueller investigation, coupled with the media circus involving “impeachment” being proved false. It appears that a lot of folks on both sides of the aisle have had their opinions hardened by the constant media drum beating.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 04:25
  #17885 (permalink)  
 
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I think it's being insanely lazy to look at Trump and then say "Ah yeah, but politicians are all the same." The guy has been averaging about 8 lies a day with no sign of slowing down, so that it should be clear that there is something deeply wrong with him even compared to other flawed personalities such as Nixon.

When a current or former holder of high office wants to attack someone he needs to use a plausible theme. Calling John McCain a "warmonger," was okay for Carter to say, mainly because it's just an opinion. Carter, too, had served as an officer in the Navy, but he was quite averse to the use of military force compared to McCain; we can believe that he might see McCain in that way. Fair enough.

Trump, on the other hand, being totally mendacious and quite remarkably stupid, what did he do? For starters, there was no obvious reason for him as a five-time draft dodger to attack McCain, a dead man who had been a genuine war hero. There Trump had no real standing, and no good reason for that, but worst of all he came out with an obvious lie, that McCain was "last in his class" at Annapolis. He was close to last, 894th out of 899, but still there were five guys behind McCain. Anyway, in light of his later heroism, who should care where McCain finished at Annapolis? Certainly not draft-dodger Trump!

With Carter, like him or loathe him, at least we have always known who he is. He has always been consistent in his personal presentation. Part of that is that he has always been reasonably careful to tell the truth, perhaps remarkably careful to do so for a politician.

Trump, on the other hand, who is this guy, really? One day it was fire and fury directed at Kim Jong Un; Trump, a cowardly draft-dodger, was posing then as the toughest, scariest warmonger ever to sit in the Oval Office. Soon afterwards though it's that he had fallen "in love" with the very same guy he was ready to nuke! Yeah, Kim wrote him a lovely letter, except that in the next breath Trump told us that he had not yet opened it and read it. (Call me odd, but I go by what a letter says, not by the size of its envelope. It could be all hearts and flowers, or it could be "Drop dead, you jerk!" I need to read it and see what the letter says.)

The only constant with Trump is his habit of lying about almost everything. He began almost before he had begun by telling us that the sun was shining on him as he gave his first speech as president in a Washington drizzle. All anyone had to do was to look at George W. Bush, right there behind Trump as he was speaking, when Bush was having a losing fight with one of those cheapo rain ponchos, because it was raining!

Stupid, obvious lies, over eight thousand of them so far, lies big and lies small, lies often uttered for no obvious reason except that the guy has something obviously wrong with him ... and that is okay with his partisans because all politicians are liars, and because seeing this freak in the Oval Office gets liberals all upset.

As to this: ' ... the outcome of the Mueller investigation, coupled with the media circus involving “impeachment” being proved false,' how do you know the outcome of the Mueller investigation from the little we have been told? Too, impeachment is still an obvious eventuality, or do you think at a few lies from Trump are going to make all of this just ... go away?

Nixon did it better. He addressed the nation by television with mucho gravitas, calling for an end to the Watergate investigation, one that, really, was just building steam. It was as if that speech could make it all stop, create some sort of time warp taking us all back to the night of his landslide victory, "Four more years!" No, Arschloch, from then it was more like four more months until you were forced to resign.

So that was Nixon, smart and crafty and deeply dishonest. Now we have Trump, stupid and clumsy and ten times more dishonest. Do you really think he is going to succeed where Nixon failed?

Last edited by chuks; 26th Mar 2019 at 08:03.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 14:22
  #17886 (permalink)  
 
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Chuks,

If that was in response to my question I appreciate your reply. As we are all aware, Trump is not a politician, to judge him by their norms is lazy also.

i understand that you and others despise everything about him, however my question was not to elicit a rehash of the myriad reasons for your hatred but to genuinely ask what your thoughts were on the outcome and the 2 years of what would appear to have been a manufactured witch hunt for no reason, I will limit it to the collusion part as the arguments for obstruction are liable to go on forever.

i found it interesting to watch Brennan say yesterday that he must have had incorrect information, quite novel for the ex head of the CIA, but that’s just me.

Anyway, thank you again for your reply.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 15:46
  #17887 (permalink)  
 
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Don't thank me!

You seem to think that it is a fact that the inquiry would appear to have been a "manufactured witch hunt for no reason." Between the two of us, that is only your take on the Mueller investigation. Based on ... what, exactly? A very short summary, second-hand, Mueller to Barr to us, four pages from what must be literally hundreds, including one short quote, might be enough for you, but it's nowhere close enough for me.

My thoughts on the outcome? I await the outcome! What we have here is just a bit of the overture; the curtain has yet to rise for the first act, yet you think that you have heard the fat lady sing, just because Trump said so.

I leave you Trumpians in peace with your delusions as I plow my own furrow. There's no very nice way to tell anyone that he's being easily gulled by one of the cheapest hustlers since Jim Bakker, that in functional terms you are morons. So I won't try to do that, not at all. You might all be Mensa material for all I know: perfectly formed people who are merely doing perfect impersonations of fools, noddypates, and nitwits. Oh, and semi-literates too!

I don't hate Trump, although I certainly do despise him. Hell, when I caught his act back in Manhattan I found him despicable, just a "poor person's idea of a rich person." He's simply so amazingly empty that he could swallow us all, just trying to fill that vast, echoing inner void; he's like a human Tardis that way, man-sized on the outside, yuge on the inside. Joseph Conrad's Charlie Marlow told us about another such, in Heart of Darkness. He said that he thought that if he could poke his finger inside him he would probably find nothing, maybe just a little bit of dirt.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 15:52
  #17888 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
You seem to think that it is a fact that the inquiry would appear to have been a "manufactured witch hunt for no reason." Between the two of us, that is only your take on the Mueller investigation. Based on ... what, exactly? A very short summary, second-hand, Mueller to Barr to us, four pages from what must be literally hundreds, including one short quote, might be enough for you, but it's nowhere close enough for me.

My thoughts on the outcome? I await the outcome! What we have here is just a bit of the overture; the curtain has yet to rise for the first act, yet you think that you have heard the fat lady sing, just because Trump said so.

I leave you Trumpians in peace with your delusions as I plow my own furrow. There's no very nice way to tell anyone that he's being easily gulled by one of the cheapest hustlers since Jim Bakker, that in functional terms you are morons. So I won't try to do that, not at all. You might all be Mensa material for all I know: perfectly formed people who are merely doing perfect impersonations of fools, noddypates, and nitwits. Oh, and semi-literates too!

I don't hate Trump, although I certainly do despise him. Hell, when I caught his act back in Manhattan I found him despicable, just a "poor person's idea of a rich person." He's simply so amazingly empty that he could swallow us all, just trying to fill that vast, echoing inner void; he's like a human Tardis that way, man-sized on the outside, yuge on the inside. Joseph Conrad's Charlie Marlow told us about another such, in Heart of Darkness. He said that he thought that if he could poke his finger inside him he would probably find nothing, maybe just a little bit of dirt.
Just what I expected from you Chuks, sorry I asked.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 16:38
  #17889 (permalink)  
 
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That's odd .... Why did you ask, then? Were you somehow expecting that I would go along with your lame assertion that everything about the Mueller inquiry is settled to Trump's advantage? Boy, are you ever in for a shock! Just wait until the whole report is leaked, when it turns out that Trump was (wait for it, wait for it ... ) lying yet again!

God damn, but this is like watching someone playing "catch" with a dog. Trump pretends to throw the ball, and you his partisans all go racing off looking for it, only to trail back mildly disappointed but loyally ready to be fooled again, and again, and again .... You must be that group that Lincoln warned us about, the some of the people who can be fooled all of the time.

We all have our roles to play in this. Some of us are happy to play along with what we see up there on stage, sitting in the cheap seats and applauding most enthusiastically, shouting "Lock her up!" even when that makes no sense at all in terms of context. Others of us want to stand and shout abuse, hurling rotten cabbages and dead cats, acting as though what we are seeing is an abomination not worth the price of admission.

We are all Americans, though, all part of one great nation under Dog. (Something like that anyway .... I never did pay much attention in Civics class .... )

The wonderful thing about a democracy such as ours (really a republic, not a democracy at all,. how we ended up with this jerk in the first place) is that every four or eight years we get to see a completely new production up on stage: a new star, a new cast of characters, and a completely different plot. Then the audience swaps places too. I get to sit down and enjoy the action; you Trumpians can stand up and lose your minds, such as they are. All that until things change again. It is just that the audience does not change; the way we take the action on stage changes, that is all. Right now you are loving this, the King's Cameleopard. Me, I am waiting for Norma. Tastes do differ.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 17:02
  #17890 (permalink)  
 
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Judging by the bunch lining up to finish the job the coup d'etat couldn't, Chuks, you won't be sitting down to enjoy any action for another 5 years at least. (I'm not sure what kind of "action" you are referring to, but as you say, tastes do differ.)
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 21:33
  #17891 (permalink)  
 
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Not the kind your mom gets!

OB, sometimes when I woke up at 3 a.m., pillow soaked with tears, I just thought to myself, "Well, it took over five years to get rid of Nixon, so give up on your childish dreams of getting rid of Trump in the first five days, weeks, months, whatever .... Start sniffing glue again; see if that helps."

So now I sleep like a baby, except that I wake up with the pillow stuck to my face.

Never mind, never mind ... that 40% of our population who felt so hard done by, stuck shoveling crap while the rest of us just laughed at them for being primitives, are now thinking that the laugh is on the so-called elites. Let them have their shallow, destructive fun watching one of their own, one of the "poorly educated" run things while once-respectable Republican politicians fight for a place in line to kiss Trump's arse. (Asking "How low will a Republican politician go to secure his own re-election?" was meant as a rhetorical question, not as a challenge! Looking at you, Mitch McConnell, and you, you perished prom queen you, Lindsey Graham.)

OB, how long do you think it will take before someone does something completely illegal that lets us see the Mueller report, all of it? Whenever that is, I bet that all this loose talk of total exoneration stops short, slams into reverse with a great grinding of gears, and then backs up all over Trump and his gang of sycophants.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 22:42
  #17892 (permalink)  
 
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Chuks,

As an outsider, from Scotland, where Trump is hated worse than the Black Death (despite his maternal origins), I feel your pain at this fuzzy Mueller outcome, interpreted by the political filter that your AG uses. But your anger and frustrated postings are in danger of clouding your brilliant and insightful analyses of the Greatest Arsloch in USA history. We need you (we, the people who cannot vote in the USA) to get back to the relentless analytical exposure of all the things this Megaturd has done which should cause him to be impeached. I have faith in 'The Land of the Brave'. My close relations are US citizens. They are, and have been for two years, scared sh*tless of the future under Il Trumpeone.

Sincerely,
Structor
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 22:47
  #17893 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by structor View Post
Chuks,

As an outsider, from Scotland, where Trump is hated worse than the Black Death (despite his maternal origins), I feel your pain at this fuzzy Mueller outcome, interpreted by the political filter that your AG uses. But your anger and frustrated postings are in danger of clouding your brilliant and insightful analyses of the Greatest Arsloch in USA history. We need you (we, the people who cannot vote in the USA) to get back to the relentless analytical exposure of all the things this Megaturd has done which should cause him to be impeached. I have faith in 'The Land of the Brave'. My close relations are US citizens. They are, and have been for two years, scared sh*tless of the future under Il Trumpeone.

Sincerely,
Structor
What specifically are they scared shitless about?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 22:56
  #17894 (permalink)  
 
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Chuks, I agree with you about one thing: Trump should simply make the whole Mueller report public. I see no reason why it should be otherwise, considering how much complete rubbish went into the whole Mueller Commission.

But when it is, and I expect that time will be soon, you and yours will be poring over it like probing through a pile of sh!t looking for some still-edible bits.

Here's a strange thought: if you don't like what Trump is doing, you get to vote him out in 20 months. (Oh wait, you're in Germany. Well, the Germans and the Scotch will just have to wait till we have our say here. Even us immigrants!)
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 23:03
  #17895 (permalink)  
 
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  1. Abuse of power
  2. Amoral behavior
  3. Illegal financial benefit from the Presidency
  4. Corruption of truth
  5. Obstruction of justice
  6. Withholding of tax accounts
  7. Disastrous and unsubstantiated foreign policy
  8. Mental instability
  9. Seriously deficient intelligence and education in diplomacy and international affairs
  10. Access to the nuclear strike capability
  11. Negligent waste of taxpayers money in weekend trips to Mar Al Lago
  12. Inability to understand and relate to the needs of US citizens who are not billionaires
  13. And last of all the idiocy of his 'WALL' which will piss billions into the sands that could have been better used.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 23:11
  #17896 (permalink)  
 
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Please - it is a small point and we don't really expect the might of the USA to understand this - but we are not 'Scotch' - we are Scottish. 'Scotch' is what we drink and we hope you do too. And yes we are not so arrogant as to think that you will listen to our say. That is understandable. It may be that we should not have the temerity to express our opinions on this site. But Just as we are small and no-one needs listen to us - You are HUGE, dominant, and massively in control of the destiny of the World. We and the rest of the World would like you to at least listen.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 23:30
  #17897 (permalink)  
 
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How many investigations are there going on into trump.prez, trump.org, trump.wife, trump.kids, trump.$$$ after Meuller's contribution of evidence? 15? 16?
From what I hear the SDNY and others do not mess around.

Pity no one from the same or another party is shining like a beacon.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 00:03
  #17898 (permalink)  
 
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Fear not, Structor -- I wrote that on purpose to wind you up! (I can't help it -- it's English genetics!)

And 1 through 10 at least, on your list, have been requirements for the presidency for ages.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 02:28
  #17899 (permalink)  
 
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You can not make this up!

I think everyone has seen clips of US soldiers stringing razor wire along the border with Mexico at Trump's command. Now it turns out that Mexican thieves are stealing the razor wire and selling it to Mexicans who want to protect their property. We will need a wall to protect our wall:

I had wondered about how those wall prototypes were themselves fenced off, instead of being left exposed to the depredations of feral beaners. They are gone now, demolished before they could be stolen.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 02:39
  #17900 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by structor View Post
Please - it is a small point and we don't really expect the might of the USA to understand this - but we are not 'Scotch' - we are fragile little snowflakes
There, fixed that for you.
Now, go and have a sip of whisky and a lie down.
You've become overwrought, and are no longer in your safe place.
I've met a number of real people from Scotland, and none of them are such an embarrassment to the cross of St Andrew.
(Though we do agree that this wall is a farcical farce)
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