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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 2nd Feb 2019, 21:01
  #17381 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
and your point is?

Mac
Egocentric on your part.

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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 16:36
  #17382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
First, let's correct your misspelled word, ackward. It is spelled awkward.

Now let’s bring some corrections and clarifications to the balance of your point. One article in the Washington Times isn’t the say all-end all to a simple political issue perhaps instigated before but certainly by Trump during his 2016 Campaign.

In early January 2019, Trump called a press conference (not a real press conference) with Brandon Judd, Art Del Cueto and Hector Garza, leaders of the NBPC, the union representing Border Patrol agents. Their message was it was OK with them to shutdown’t the government for however long it takes to get Trump’s funding for a border wall, even if their membership doesn’t get paid, a politically supportive message for Trump. Two things smell and a red flag went up.

First, it’s hard to believe a union would actually advocate for their members to work without pay and second, advocating a wall over human members they represent. Now keep in mind the $5.7 billion Trump demands is a 25% downpayment on his ultimate goal for a total wall, e.g., $22.8 billion for a beautiful southern border wall. So why does it smell and why the red flag?

Brandon Judd and the NBPC leadership endorsed Trump in March 2016, before he’d even won the Republican nomination for president. Trump bragged about their endorsement incessantly in the last six weeks of the campaign. When Trump’s ideas didn’t exactly mesh with the NBPC, the union leaders graciously provided corrections to Trump.

In a meeting in 2018 just before Thanksgiving in the White House, Judd supported Trump on the use of military force at the border over the objections of Kirstjen Nielsen and John Kelly. It is also true that the three union leaders receive annually $140,000 from union dues to split among themselves, a nice cushion the membership doesn’t enjoy, being paid or not paid. Throughout 2018, the Union’s web site said this about a southern border wall:
The NBPC disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal entries into the United States. However, as long as we continue to operate under the current NBPS and ignore the problem that is causing illegal immigration, we realize fences and walls are essential.
  • Walls and fences are temporary solutions that focus on the symptom (illegal immigration) rather than the problem (employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens).
  • Walls and fences are only a speed bump. People who want to come to the United States to obtain employment will continue to go over, under, and around the walls and fences that are constructed.
  • Walls and fences will undoubtedly result in an increase in fraudulent documents and smuggling through the Ports of Entry.
  • Walls and fences do not solve the issue of people entering the country legally and staying beyond the date they are required to leave the country, a problem which will undoubtedly increase as more walls and fences are constructed.
  • The NBPC position regarding walls and fences is not due to a concern of losing our jobs if fences and walls are built. On the contrary, the NBPC realizes that walls and fences require just as much manpower to protect them. Border Patrol Agents witness what happens to walls and fences when there are not enough Border Patrol agents to protect them.
Magically this message was taken down by the union leaders when the government shutdown talk got hot and heavy. When asked about it Judd responded that it was an old message provided by the previous union leadership. When asked if he (Judd) recommended a border wall to Trump prior to his candidacy, Judd replied he didn’t know.

Now to your survey: Judd talks as though his membership is unified behind a border wall, touting the union survey. As The Washington Times reported:
The NBPC’s survey, of more than 600 agents in two of the Border Patrol’s busiest sectors, found … 89 percent of line agents say a “wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.” Just 7 percent (brave souls) disagreed. In total, there are ~ 16,000 border patrol agents along the Mexican border. For the wall issue, the language doesn’t distinguish between existing sections of wall and the wisdom of what Trump wants to build going forward (an entire length border wall). Most members of the Democratic caucus in Congress believe that a “wall system in strategic locations” is necessary. The wording seemed to me as being designed to get the highest possible rate of agreement, not to discern the actual position of union members on Trump’s wall and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

Union officials don’t tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and Trump doesn’t know what truth is and he doesn’t care.
I started to reply to your post only to find out there isn’t anything to refute, only your paranoid suspicions about the union.

The agents, the union and the management all want it, time for you to go post political and demand of your lawmakers their support. Also, add in the Obama era head of the Border Partol is also advocating for it.
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 20:02
  #17383 (permalink)  
 
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WC, again you demonstrate your happy indifference to fact.

It might be so that every last Border Patrol agent is for a yuge ferro-concrete wall thirty feet high buried ten feet deep, stretching from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico Will Pay. (Given that not even Trump is for that any longer, that's probably not so, is it?)

WC, which one of ten or so variants on this theme of "wall" is it that you think both Trump and the Border Patrol really are for? Tell us that and then expect that Trump himself will come out next for something completely different.

It's not much use, WC, grousing about who should or should not comment here on US politics, given that it's not even a US site. "Wall, fence," or "peaches" aside, a lot of what we comment on here is Trump's malign impact on foreign relations, Even when it comes to the wall itself, aside from the shut-down Trump went for, did you notice that it will still be North America on the other side of it? (When it comes to the Americas, I have never left North America, although I have been to a couple of places in Mexico.)
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 20:24
  #17384 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
WC, again you demonstrate your happy indifference to fact.

It might be so that every last Border Patrol agent is for a yuge ferro-concrete wall thirty feet high buried ten feet deep, stretching from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico Will Pay. (Given that not even Trump is for that any longer, that's probably not so, is it?)

WC, which one of ten or so variants on this theme of "wall" is it that you think both Trump and the Border Patrol really are for? Tell us that and then expect that Trump himself will come out next for something completely different.

It's not much use, WC, grousing about who should or should not comment here on US politics, given that it's not even a US site. "Wall, fence," or "peaches" aside, a lot of what we comment on here is Trump's malign impact on foreign relations, Even when it comes to the wall itself, aside from the shut-down Trump went for, did you notice that it will still be North America on the other side of it? (When it comes to the Americas, I have never left North America, although I have been to a couple of places in Mexico.)
Offer me fact as related to the topic then. You question my indifference to fact in your opener, yet you offer nothing beyond questions and opinion. I get it, it’s problematic for you and TD to operate outside of politics and listen to the professionals who want a wall. Given that, lefty talking points and opinion seem weak.

Why Chuks shouldn’t we believe the agents, their leadership and their union? If you can’t attack that head on, I’ll know you have no footing.
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 21:02
  #17385 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast,
The agents, the union and the management all want it, time for you to go post political and demand of your lawmakers their support. Also, add in the Obama era head of the Border Partol is also advocating for it.
It's Patrol not Partol (spelling correction to start).

There is no winner in this whole Trump wall episode, Trump lost, the Democrats lost and most importantly, the United States have lost. But you know who won? James Madison won.

Mr. Madison had this to say about how the US Constitution structured the government and why:

“The House of Representatives…alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of government,” Madison wrote in Federalist No. 58. “This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people.”

Trump can bluster, recruit the Border Patrol Union including the Union management and evoke full support from his core supporters, or have Hannity on Fox New and Ann Coulter lead the cheerleading for Trump's wall on TV or in the media. He can shut the government down again or by executive order, declare a "National Emergency" (there isn't one) on the US - Mexican border to build the wall. But, Trump isn't going to get his wall unless he befriends and convinces the necessary members of The House of Representatives. There may be money for border security, but not for Trump's wall. Over 60% of Americans think Trump's fixed wall theory is a waste of money.

There is no need for me to post political, James Madison identified what Trump must do if he want his beautiful wall, but Trump thinks that is a waste of his valuable time.

Live with it.
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 21:21
  #17386 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast,
I get it, it’s problematic for you and TD to operate outside of politics and listen to the professionals who want a wall. Given that, lefty talking points and opinion seem weak.
Explain to us why the "professionals" who didn't want a full border wall up through 2017, and now want one. For the most part, the Union folks that voted for a Trump wall have one already in key location, which I assume they had a vote in correctly positioning.

The NBPC leaders are the politicians you speak about. Can you offer anything other than the weak Washington Times article that supports your political position?
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 21:25
  #17387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
West Coast,

It's Patrol not Partol (spelling correction to start).

There is no winner in this whole Trump wall episode, Trump lost, the Democrats lost and most importantly, the United States have lost. But you know who won? James Madison won.

Mr. Madison had this to say about how the US Constitution structured the government and why:

“The House of Representatives…alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of government,” Madison wrote in Federalist No. 58. “This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people.”

Trump can bluster, recruit the Border Patrol Union including the Union management and evoke full support from his core supporters, or have Hannity on Fox New and Ann Coulter lead the cheerleading for Trump's wall on TV or in the media. He can shut the government down again or by executive order, declare a "National Emergency" (there isn't one) on the US - Mexican border to build the wall. But, Trump isn't going to get his wall unless he befriends and convinces the necessary members of The House of Representatives. There may be money for border security, but not for Trump's wall. Over 60% of Americans think Trump's fixed wall theory is a waste of money.

There is no need for me to post political, James Madison identified what Trump must do if he want his beautiful wall, but Trump thinks that is a waste of his valuable time.

Live with it.
Spend your time and efforts explaining why the professionals who are charged with guarding the border and want the fence are wrong and you’re right.
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 21:54
  #17388 (permalink)  
 
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WC, you got some 'splainin' to do ....

Now it is "the professionals who are charged with guarding the border and want the fence .... " A few posts ago it was " ... the professionals who want a wall." (My emphasis in both quotes.)

What next, WC, the professionals who want the peaches?

WC, you can't even get the fact of what all those Border Patrol people (You know for a fact it is all of them, every last one? How?)) want, whether it's a wall or a fence or what. Look, stud, I used to do FMS updates too, when I knew how to get all those little waypoints straight, lest I find myself wandering my wistful way in the untracked vastness of the Sahara Desert with about as much of an idea of how to reach my goal as you and your Orange Idol are exhibiting now.

The fact of my being able to read books with big words, books that do not involve the use of crayons, and doing this amazing feat without moving my lips, does not mean that I can't also do highly focused stuff in a precise way. Anyway, it is not as if I need to be Mr. Brain to top this wandering goal of a wall, or a fence or whatever it's going to be in Trump's next tweet as presented by your dizzy posts.

Come now, WC, tell us, do, exactly what it is that you, Trump, and the entire Border Patrol want. If it is "border protection," that has been on offer from the Democrat-controlled House for some time now.
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Old 3rd Feb 2019, 22:07
  #17389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Now it is "the professionals who are charged with guarding the border and want the fence .... " A few posts ago it was " ... the professionals who want a wall." (My emphasis in both quotes.)

What next, WC, the professionals who want the peaches?

WC, you can't even get the fact of what all those Border Patrol people (You know for a fact it is all of them, every last one? How?)) want, whether it's a wall or a fence or what. Look, stud, I used to do FMS updates too, when I knew how to get all those little waypoints straight, lest I find myself wandering my wistful way in the untracked vastness of the Sahara Desert with about as much of an idea of how to reach my goal as you and your Orange Idol are exhibiting now.

The fact of my being able to read books with big words, books that do not involve the use of crayons, and doing this amazing feat without moving my lips, does not mean that I can't also do highly focused stuff in a precise way. Anyway, it is not as if I need to be Mr. Brain to top this wandering goal of a wall, or a fence or whatever it's going to be in Trump's next tweet as presented by your dizzy posts.

Come now, WC, tell us, do, exactly what it is that you, Trump, and the entire Border Patrol want. If it is "border protection," that has been on offer from the Democrat-controlled House for some time now.
This isn’t about me and what I think our President wants. Framing it as such is simply a distraction from addressing what the pros say they need. Specifically address that and I’ll humour your question.


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Old 4th Feb 2019, 00:19
  #17390 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast,
Spend your time and efforts explaining why the professionals who are charged with guarding the border and want the fence are wrong and you’re right.
Geez, I did that and now have to explain everything to you again, typical of an amateur slow learner. Well, OK, but relative to your question:
  • Walls and fences are only a speed bump. People who want to come to the United States to obtain employment will continue to go over, under, and around the walls and fences that are constructed.
  • Walls and fences will undoubtedly result in an increase in fraudulent documents and smuggling through the Ports of Entry.
  • Walls and fences do not solve the issue of people entering the country legally and staying beyond the date they are required to leave the country, a problem which will undoubtedly increase as more walls and fences are constructed.
  • The NBPC position regarding walls and fences is not due to a concern of losing our jobs if fences and walls are built. On the contrary, the NBPC realizes that walls and fences require just as much manpower to protect them. Border Patrol Agents witness what happens to walls and fences when there are not enough Border Patrol agents to protect them.
This from the NBPC before political Union leader, Brandon Judd appeared on the scene, Trump's union best friend. Trump understands this but ignores it, just as you do.

Spend your time and effort as Trump told his National Security Folks, "Go Back To School", e.g., on the Wall issue, learn the difference between politics and reality of non-political facts. BTW, Trump is bringing more military troops to the border, to string barbwire, maybe they will string a significant amount on your backyard fence to make you more secure if you ask before you sell your house and move to Arizona, you seem very insecure. Send Trump a thank-you Tweet, and tell him how much you love him, he will appreciate that...
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 01:24
  #17391 (permalink)  
 
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TD, there is no group in the US better suited to answer the question of whether we need a wall than the Border Patrol.

If you believe otherwise, name them.

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Old 4th Feb 2019, 05:41
  #17392 (permalink)  
 
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Westy, your mistake in this day and age is that you persist in the strange thought that the Border Patrol is supposed to be a law enforcement agency. Whereas, like many other institutions, it has often been used as an agency of social reform and political control.

Much like the IRS and most of our universities.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 05:56
  #17393 (permalink)  
 
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"Big words make my lips tired when I read them."

WC, why quote an entire post? How about picking whatever part you want to address in reply instead?

Let's try again. First you told us that all (meaning, I guess 100%, of the Border Patrol: the brave men, the brave women, the brave trans-sexuals, and the brave sniffer dogs too) want a "wall." Then you told us that they wanted a "fence." A wall is not a fence, so which is it to be?

Fences we already have, in fact. I distinctly remember peeing on one near Calexico after more than a few beers in that Chinese restaurant in Mexicali, El Dragon. A tall, rusty steel fence ... or maybe it was a wall, since it was pretty high. (Is this like the difference between a horse and a pony? You tell us, please, because we need to know.)

To recapitulate, Trump campaigned on a 30-foot tall wall made of ferro-concrete that should form a penetrable (merely almost impossible to get over or under) barrier the entire length of our southern border with Mexico. Cost ... not a problem, because "Mexico will pay," perhaps even all at once, $5.7 billion. From the time of his assuming office he has zigzagged on this issue so that now we are left wondering what sort of barrier, how long, what it should really cost, and who is going to pay.

West Coast is our resident expert in all things wallfence, and he also seems to have deep insight into the mind of Donald Trump, so that I think it is up to him to step up to the plate and take a hearty swing at this pińata, to settle the details of what, exactly, it is that the USA needs and that 100% of the Border Patrol wants.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 06:40
  #17394 (permalink)  
 
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Chuks, instead of word-parsing and typo-nit-picking other people's posts, why don't you tell us just what YOU think should be done on the southern border. Or do you think things are just fine as they are?

But, no, you see the border issue as just another way to exercise your disdain for Trump and for anyone who doesn't quite harbor your hatred for all things Trumpian.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 09:37
  #17395 (permalink)  
 
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OB, mine would be a typical liberal approach, a complicated one, that's what I would like to see:

Fund increased manning for the Border Patrol.

Fund increased dogging too, since the last two big arrests came as the result of drug-detecting dogs scenting the contraband at points of legal entry, places a wall would do nothing to block.

Move to reduce demand by US consumers for illegal drugs, even by, perhaps, legalization. That would have to include seeking to reduce legal opioid use in the USA.

Use our "soft power" to better the conditions south of the border that are driving Central Americans to flee and seek asylum in the USA. We helped mess things up, so let's try to help fix the mess that now exists.

There is much more on offer, OB, while a lot of this has already been proposed.

Trump and his partisans just revert to this simplistic wish for some sort of simple wall, one they agree is permeable, simply because he made this silly idea into a vote-winner with the "poorly educated." (Trump's term for his base, not mine.)

Why the better-educated, some of them, go along with this nonsense ... that is probably down to simple opportunism. They must be what the Germans call Trittbrettfahrer, people who just go along with something, specifically those who went along with the Nazis.

OB, you opportunists are going to end up on the wrong side of history, but that will take a while. In the mean time your man is in power, sort of, so that you think that you are riding high.

Here we go again, Trumpions, so fasten your seatbelts and hang onto your bouffants. (You ready for take-off, OB? By the way, "word-parsing," really? What we are parsing here is words, so that "word-parsing" is like "food-eating," a thundering redundancy.)

Parsing the phrase "nearly impossible to climb" gives us at its simplest "possible to climb." In the same way, "almost impossible to tunnel under" gives us "possible to tunnel under." So much for the Great Wall of Trump serving its unstated purpose as some absolute barrier on our southern border.

180 days of planning for a wall 2,000 miles long? What could possibly go wrong? Or else this is just Trump posing as wanting to build this thing but being thwarted by those who care nothing for our safety, so Fageddaboudit! and on to the next vote-winning, empty promise.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 11:10
  #17396 (permalink)  
 
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So your view, Chuks, is that tried and true liberal line: throw more money at it. Set up agencies, bureaus, and foreign aid plans to use up a never ending supply of tax dollars, with no actual finite goal, or knowledge of what those plans could actually accomplish. (Case in point: "better the conditions south of the border" -- can you be more specific?)

You seem focused on the drugs aspect of border control. But that is only a small, though dangerous, part of what draws people into the illegal immigration environment. The vast majority of illegals have nothing to do with drugs.

Anyway, credit to you for actually venturing an opinion, rather than just carrying on about Trump or about wordplay.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 12:18
  #17397 (permalink)  
 
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Ob, "throw more money at it," sounds an awful lot like insisting on $5.7 billion for this wall, and that just for starters.

Some informed estimates have the total, final cost of building a literal wall, not a fence or peaches, along the entire length of our southern border at something around $70 billion (Democratic sources, of course). Trump himself wanted $25 billion for it last year, when he only got $1.6 billion from a Republican-controlled Congress. Anyway, it is quite clear that $5.7 billion is just another one of those numbers that Trump pulled out of his big, fat arse, just like the thousand hamberders.

OB, I am sure that you do all sorts of complicated procedures in your line of work, instead of just going at random patients with an axe, making everything very simple. Why would that be, perhaps because taking the simple approach to a complicated problem often does not work?

I seem focused on the drugs aspect of border control? “Remember drugs. The drugs are pouring into this country. They don’t go through the ports of entry. When they do, they sometimes get caught.” That's yer man, focusing on the drugs aspect, and getting it wrong, too. (Most drugs do go through the ports of entry, and when they do they often get caught.)

With this, OB, you are straying from alternate fact: "The vast majority of illegals have nothing to do with drugs."

Here is what Trump wants us to think about that: "They’re [Mexico is] sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with [sic] us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” You will note that "drugs" comes first with your thought-leader.

As I previously mentioned, OB, with your average Trump partisan sweet reason falls on stony ground. What works, just sometimes, is, yes, wordplay. It is as it was with that "9/11 was an inside job!" crowd, basically just asking "Why, if you is so very, very smart do you all write as if you are working with crayons?" I think that is called "trolling," actually. "Trolling the trolls," if you like.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 13:18
  #17398 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast,
TD, there is no group in the US better suited to answer the question of whether we need a wall than the Border Patrol.

If you believe otherwise, name them.
I did answer the question of whether we need a wall or not by the Border Patrol, the NBPC union position regarding the wall before the political leader Judd (Trump's best friend) took over the union.

But the major point you are missing in your zealous support of Trump and his wall is this, immigrants illegally crossing the border aren't the major problem, addictive drugs are and a Trump border wall will not stop these drugs coming in as most come in through the border entry points. During the 34 day government shutdown, 6,698 people in the US died from an opioid overdose, based on the Centers for Disease Control data. How many people in the US died resulting from people crossing the Mexican - US border illegally during the shutdown period?

Trump's border wall mirrors the same mentality of the failed tactics from the war on drugs. Personally, I think your arguments supporting Trump are simply self-serving. Trump isn't going to get his wall money from the US House of Representatives and they control the purse strings. BTW, Trump is sending 3,700 more US troops to the border to string barbwire. Soon we will be able to call the southern border with Mexico "The Barbwire Curtain", reminiscence of "The Iron Curtain" of yesteryears.

Last edited by Turbine D; 4th Feb 2019 at 13:21. Reason: added word
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 13:51
  #17399 (permalink)  
 
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The wall around East Germany was the real deal. That one was made to work in reverse, keeping East Germans in, but it was called "the anti-fascist protection wall" as if it were meant to keep predatory capitalists out.

That wall had the works: tall cement slabs, barbed-wire, some segments that were electrified, nasty little things that shot frags by trip wires, guards in towers, dog patrols ....

Now, I know the question you Trump-lovers are waiting for is "So, was it a good idea, that wall? Did it work?" Well, no. East Germany, sat there behind its wall, collapsed.

All that is left of the wall is a few segments still in place in Berlin and the rest dispersed all over the world, and a lot of places where you come across a cleared strip in a German forest that looks just like a clearing for a high-tension line, except that there's no high-tension line. That was where all this folderol had been emplaced.

One time I came across the northern border in a VW Bug with two friends, a friend from school and her boyfriend. The boyfriend and I both had long hair and beards, and the friend from school was a paid-up Communist, although I am not sure if you could tell that by looking at her. So ... VW Bug + two freaky-looking guys (both Vietnam vets, for what that was worth at the time, less than zero) + one Communist = "Pull into that parking spot right there and go into the office." No "Please," or "Thank you," to it.

After about 20 minutes left on my own in a small room with a desk and two chairs this guy in uniform came in to confront me with a few stems and seeds, cannabis that he had supposedly found in one of those little door pockets of the Bug. He told me that if I wanted to make a full confession now this would be taken into account at my trial. (Smooth move, that. Because I was not being questioned I did not get a Miranda warning, but what I might say could well be used against me.) I just shrugged and told him that it was not my Bug; that the thing was 15 years old so that anyone could have left that stuff there over that span of time; that none of us, appearances to the contrary, even used cannabis (true, actually); so "Do your worst."

He then threatened me with a strip search, when I tried to look excited about showing off my genitalia to some government functionary, or perhaps just to a drug-sniffing dog. Finally they just told us to go away. Nobody got strip-searched. It crossed my mind that if I really were going to run drugs I would do that after a shave and a haircut, driving a beige Chevrolet Nova, but I did not bother to tell them that.

Last edited by chuks; 5th Feb 2019 at 05:20. Reason: Freudian slip, a big one!
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 14:03
  #17400 (permalink)  
 
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That wall had the works: tall cement slabs, barbed-wife, some segments that were electrified, nasty little things that shot frags by trip wires, guards in towers, dog patrols ....
And the "Kill Zones". Those oh so deep and difficult kill zones.
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