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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 17th Dec 2018, 15:52
  #16821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
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Turbine, you think having a few bb’s picked out of your face is the equivalent to being drowned to death?

Amazing what so e will accept in the name of political expedience.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 17:55
  #16822 (permalink)  
 
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How many different sorts of drowning are on offer? I thought drowning was always fatal, so that "drowned to death" pretty much covers it, and then some.

There is some informed opinion that Teddy did not know that he had a backseat passenger, but drowned, not even drowned to death, was enough to brand him for life and end what looked like a cakewalk into the White House. Deservedly so, too, in my opinion. OB, if you want to make him out to be some sort of villain, good on you, but for that you need to hunt up some wrinkly old libtard who is still in mourning over the way we did not get to have Camelot Redux, to pick a fight over a personality who is long gone and who matters not very much. Trump is the hot topic of the moment, so do try to pay attention to what he has been up to, and has he ever been a busy, busy boy!

OB, this business of "But (name of member of opposition party) did worse than Donald Trump!" is so ... yesterday. You just watch the kindling pile up around the Donald's feet, when someone will be along with a match soon, okay? The guy has been accused of far more and far worse than got Nixon to walk the plank, so that if just ten percent of it turns out to be true, that will be the end of Donald Trump, one of these days. The guy has more lives than a cat, but the count will have to pass nine some day soon, I think. All this bluster about "WITCH HUNT!" and "FAKE NEWS!" is only fooling the fools who cling to Trump, nobody else. I assume you are not among that group but just playing this for laughs, winding up the liberals as you see it.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 18:11
  #16823 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry, Chuks, I don't play the grammar-gotcha game. You knew what I meant.

The only thing that will do Trump in is a tanking economy. Which is what the Left is praying for, except they have forgotten who to pray to.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 18:38
  #16824 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
obgraham,

Let me help you and Hempy out with letting you know of a Repub that fits.

Dick Cheney, VPOTUS. Shot his close friend at close range in the face with a shotgun that required the removal of 200+ pellets. Cheney then took advantage of his friend's mild-mannered personna by never apologizing to him for the accidental shooting. Cheney was obviously protecting his monetary assets for any potential forthcoming lawsuit, real or imagined, Never admit anything, never apologize. Disgusting morality in my book...

“He never did need to apologize. It was an accident," he told the Daily News. "He expressed his concern about me publically, but he never had reason to apologize because we knew how seriously he was affected by it."

Harry Whittington. Still friends with Cheney. If Harry isn’t concerned about it, you shouldn’t be. Nor should you be finding equivalence between it and Chappaquiddick.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 18:43
  #16825 (permalink)  
 
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PDR and Chuks bring out the most salient points.

PDR mentions what I, and undoubtedly many who visit this and other boards, have been deeply wondering about--and that is at what point does this full-throated support no longer just reflect support for a politician, but actually, and more accurately, reflects who and what each supporter is?

If one is supporting lying, dissembling, dishonesty, and all the rest, does that not mirror what that person is inside? While we can never be sure of other's motives, at some point worshiping dishonesty, greed, etc. seems to be a pretty close indication of who and what a person is and wants to be. Sure, no matter in what country one resides, we have had to hold our noses and vote--but that does not mean that we support that candidate or office holder unconditionally. What we see with Trump is such a blind loyalty that it is a personality cult and not just that one preferred him over Hillary and thus the rub.

Chuks raises the point about this constant whataboutism. Do we all remember when we got in trouble as youngsters we could simply plead to our parents that Young William from next door did it--at which point the parents disapproval would melt away and they would say "Great! As long as Young Bill is doing it that makes it ok!" No, that is not the way it played out. After getting cuffed a few times (or worse) we realized that dog was not going to hunt.

Why Trump supporters play this intellectually and morally bereft game is worse than improper--it is severely damaging to the U.S. And no, don't trot out the tripe that the country will always right itself. At some point, as PDR says, the foundational damage is simply too great to be a leading nation again. Sure it will muddle along and it has a strong military, but the shining light on the hill will be dimmed and the world will look elsewhere for leadership. Reality has a nasty characteristic of intruding on such stupidities as whataboutism and the worship of prevarication and dishonesty. Like yesterday's fish, it does not age well.

Last edited by Uncle Fred; 17th Dec 2018 at 19:30.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 19:11
  #16826 (permalink)  
 
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Fred, it is only your side of these debates who suggests that we who appreciate what Trump is doing are therefore "full-throated supporters". I for one am not, and have stated so from the very start. Moreover, I'm not at all concerned with your interpretation of " who and what a person is and wants to be" and your implication that those who think differently from you are morally bereft.

Politics is supposed to be about getting things done. But the Left has simply not forgiven the voters of America for deciding they had enough of the old ways of political backslapping and taking them for granted. The media have jumped on this also, in the most irrelevant and superficial ways: concentrating on Trump's silly orange face and hair, or the red tint on his wife's Christmas Trees, and mostly on his personality defects. Virtually every administration uses the old "yeah but my predecessors were worse" argument. In this case, it is apparent to all but the most dense, that the media's approach changed as the occupant of 1600 Penna did.

In the face of national and international improvement, you and your lot are hoping for failure, so that you can revert to the usual "sit down and shut up so we can tell you what to think" approach. Well, that time is past. Trump, Brexit, and France are signs that people are fed up, and are no longer willing to pass control of their lives, their families, and their culture to a small bunch of know-it-alls.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 19:25
  #16827 (permalink)  
 
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"Full throated"
I didn't even vote for the man, rather I voted Libertarian. I do like some of what he's done, if you think that's full throated, then you need some recalibration.

Last edited by West Coast; 17th Dec 2018 at 21:57.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 21:12
  #16828 (permalink)  
 
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On the other hand, WC, if a whole lot of people had done like you, we'd have the Hildebeest in control now. Ross Perot redux!
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 21:56
  #16829 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
On the other hand, WC, if a whole lot of people had done like you, we'd have the Hildebeest in control now. Ross Perot redux!
Living in California allowed me to vote my conscience as no matter what my vote was, the state was going to Hillary. I’d have had some thinking to do if I lived in someplace like Wisconsin.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 22:47
  #16830 (permalink)  
 
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Uncle Fred

It ain't about lying and cheating. It's about violating laws that interfere in the carrying out the duties of office.

Just because "J accuse" is not going to change anything other than goad a nasty reply. We seem to be in a feeding frenzy of accusations for the sake of a daily feel-good fix. Either get over it or await a cause that is meaningful like an election or a final court findings of guilty as charged (against a law).

Meanwhile we are now headed towards yet another do-nothing-for the-people congressional actions to continue feeding this frenzy
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 05:06
  #16831 (permalink)  
 
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I don't understand the problem with funding for the wall. Trump himself told us repeatedly that "Mexico will pay!" He should get Mexico to pay and stop pestering Congress for the money to pay for the wall.

Of course in reality the idea of a wall along more than three thousand miles of our southern border is complete nonsense for multiple reasons. Nobody but an idiot would think it is something viable in reality. What next, a transparent dome over Washington, D.C.? A dome with big sliding doors so that we can still use National Airport, of course .... I bet you Trump boosters were thinking "That chuks ... what a dummy! He forgot that we will still need to get in and out of National."

You will note that the wall prototypes are being protected by a fence. If there were real faith in the prototypes then they would have been put right there on the border to be tested by real illegals and gangsters.

Of course if you believe in Trump then you must believe that nobody can get over a 30-foot wall in person, nor somehow propel a packet of contraband over it. All this whining is basically hurt feelings over how roughly reality is dealing with your fantastic beliefs. You got what you wanted, Trump instead of the Hildebeest, but are you happy about that? Seemingly not, but please do not blame those who are against Trump for the way your boy is turning out to be an even bigger disappointment than he was threatened to be.

When Trump came in there was some vague notion of waiting to see him go from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll, to turn "Presidential" as he had promised to do. Big nopes on that one: He led off with total Trump when he spoke of speaking as the sun came out, when it clearly had been raining, as shown by George W. Bush losing an argument with his cheap plastic rain poncho. Then there was the kerfuffle with the photos showing low attendance, contradicting Trump's claims of the highest attendance ever. Nobody was attacking him at that point; he was not being goaded into doing these foolish and destructive things. He chose to do them and it set the tone for what has followed.

It will be interesting to see how you Trump partisans spin a shutdown that Trump has preemptively taken ownership of, how you will be able to blame it on the Democrats in the House.

This is about on the level of "Crowd-fund me my new motorcycle or else I shoot this puppy!" after I had already told everyone Mexico was buying it for me. Why should Mexico buy me a motorcycle? Well, they are going to fund a wall for $15 billion, so why not my new motorcycle that only costs about $20 thousand? Chinga la Mexico. Treat Mexico like a big piñata and beat on it until we get what we want. On this one I find myself right there in line behind Donald Trump, both of us with our little tin cups held out.

Don't call me stupid. I know Congress isn't going to pay for my new bike. It's either Mexico, or you guys, or else the puppy gets it.

Last edited by chuks; 18th Dec 2018 at 05:23.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 17:37
  #16832 (permalink)  
 
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sit down and shut up so we can tell you what to think
Ob, this is a statement you drag out from time to time, and I've always wondered exactly what you are on about. Do you have some specific examples of the government/the liberals/the majority/the elite "telling people what to think?"

Above and beyond what any society "tells people what to think" in order for the society to function? As in: 2+2=4; or Stop signs mean "Stop, and then proceed when clear"; or "All men are created equal."
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 18:03
  #16833 (permalink)  
 
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Pattern, you really must live in a bubble of your own construction.

Perhaps you missed the congressman stating "I'd like to be able to regulate free speech"

Perhaps you haven't noticed the persistent efforts on college campuses to prevent speakers from appearing if they are opposed to the politically correct agenda,

Perhaps you've missed the many times when someone was shamed out of business when they expressed an opinion contrary to the currently acceptable ones.

Perhaps you are unaware of the many times, even here, when "racist" and "nazi" are trotted out when contrary opinions are expressed.

Perhaps you haven't noticed the many times right here on JB when someone makes the tired "religion should be banned" argument.

Self-awareness has never been a strength of the Left. "All men are created equal" in their mind is "subject to approval".
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 18:58
  #16834 (permalink)  
 
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Not only do they never tire of acting as oppressed victims, their principals are also firm as jello.

"In 2007, an Associated Press-Yahoo poll found 71 percent of Republicans saying it is “extremely important” for presidential candidates to be honest, similar to 70 percent of Democrats and 66 percent of independents. The new Post poll shows identical shares of Democrats and independents prioritizing honesty in presidential candidates, but the share of Republicans who say honesty is extremely important has fallen to 49 percent, 22 points lower than in the AP-Yahoo poll."

Trump routinely says things that aren’t true. Few Americans believe him.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 19:41
  #16835 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by One Outsider View Post
Not only do they never tire of acting as oppressed victims, their principals are also firm as jello.

"In 2007, an Associated Press-Yahoo poll found 71 percent of Republicans saying it is “extremely important” for presidential candidates to be honest, similar to 70 percent of Democrats and 66 percent of independents. The new Post poll shows identical shares of Democrats and independents prioritizing honesty in presidential candidates, but the share of Republicans who say honesty is extremely important has fallen to 49 percent, 22 points lower than in the AP-Yahoo poll."

Trump routinely says things that aren’t true. Few Americans believe him.

That poll only applies to wishful thinking before an election, Afterwards it's a different story. Once elected it's a constant struggle to not be impeached by losers. The elected simply stretches it out far enough to hold onto the job while getting something done. Meanwhile most that gets done is not by congress but presidential decrees only to get undone by the next president.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 22:37
  #16836 (permalink)  

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"Perhaps you missed the congressman stating "I'd like to be able to regulate free speech"
Perhaps you haven't noticed the persistent efforts on college campuses to prevent speakers from appearing if they are opposed to the politically correct agenda,
Perhaps you've missed the many times when someone was shamed out of business when they expressed an opinion contrary to the currently acceptable ones.
Perhaps you are unaware of the many times, even here, when "racist" and "nazi" are trotted out when contrary opinions are expressed.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the many times right here on JB when someone makes the tired "religion should be banned" argument.
"

No thinking person could be unaware of these disturbing trends, which
worry me a great deal more than Trump's rather unpleasant persona.

But since you bring it up, I don't see Trump as being very concerned by 'em.
I don't see him defending personal liberties, unless they happen to be his own.

I'm, as sick to death of mainstream politicians as anyone, but Trumps's
Tammany"Boss Tweed" brand is just the same old thing over again.

Mac
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 01:08
  #16837 (permalink)  
 
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ob - all you trotted out were a series of people's opinions. Which by your own argument should be protected. Or are you trying to tell them what to think? Sauce/goose/gander.

Is it not you and WC who keep telling us "Don't listen to what someone says - watch what they do"?

- The congressman can spout anything he wants. I have perfect faith that the Constitution will protect me, and itself, from such nonsense (and will throw my puny weight behind it. if needed).
- College campuses - actually a brief fit now in decline. However, paying for a microphone does given one the right to determine who gets to use it (as Ronald Reagan proclaimed). Or has conservative support for property rights declined that far in 40 years?
- The businessman. The free market determines that businesses survive by keeping their customers happy. They should not be driven out of existence by force - but they are not (and should not be) guaranteed survival if they shoot off their mouth and irritate their customers.
- Here on the forum, free speech prevails (at the pleasure of the mods, of course - it's their microphone.) If you are such a "snowflake" that you can't handle the "nazi, racist, religion" comments from time to time, well, I'm sorry, but that's a problem between your ears, not for the rest of us.

Bottom line - what we think is always free, because no one knows what we are thinking. We have freedom to speak free of government interference or violence - we do not have freedom to speak without accepting other consequences (and never have).

The congressman may say something that gets him unelected. The businessman may say something that loses him his customer base. That's how "freedom" works.

We may or may not have freedom to act on what we think, depending on whether our actions break the law. Especially if our actions impinge upon the freedoms or rights of others.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 04:00
  #16838 (permalink)  
 
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I'll summarize my view compactly, Pattern, as I do in my similar debates with my adult daughter. She's in Seattle. ('Nuff said!):

I am not the slightest concerned that you, or she, or the opposition in an electoral campaign, think my views are wrong, delusional, silly, or whatever. That's the nature of debate, and I'm sure you can deduce my opinions of yours. It's what free speech is all about.

However, I take serious offense at the suggestion that because my views might be wrong, delusional, or silly, I should not be allowed to hold them, or that I might be racist, stupid or fascist, but in any event should be required to change them. This occurred throughout the 2016 campaign, it goes on in the media and the arts today, and rears its head from time to time even here. It's what enables totalitarians everywhere, and has no place in a free society.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 05:09
  #16839 (permalink)  
 
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Compactly put - and I don't disagree with that, as far as it goes.

Although as far as I can tell, you are saying certain views of others have "no place in a free society," while accusing your opposition of saying your views have "no place in a free society." There's a bit of a problem there. If thoughts should be free - that applies to all thoughts. Including the thought that thoughts should not be free. At least that's how we've always done it.

I won't tell you what to think - I'll just leave you to work out that conundrum for yourself.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 05:56
  #16840 (permalink)  
 
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Recall our conversations a few months past PIF where you believed yourself to be smarter than rednecks. Enough said.

Your words wrt flyover state folks, 28 July of this year, this thread.

“I may see myself as more rational and more accurate at times, but "holier" is a null value for me. Big zero”

So remember your own words as you reply to OB.



Last edited by West Coast; 19th Dec 2018 at 06:17.
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