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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 31st Aug 2018, 03:17
  #15641 (permalink)  
 
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Oicur...

”...Now, should we talk about how much gerrymandering assisted the Republicans also?...”

mmmm. How does gerrymandering affect a general election for President? It doesn’t.

Every vote is counted, residence is irrelevant. Federal offices are “at large”, no districts.

To gerrymander a State would be quite a trick. The adjoining State would have to agree to distort the state borders. Politicians are resourceful, but I don’t remember gerrymandering a State. Its interior subdivisions? Boy Howdy, all day long.

Last edited by Concours77; 31st Aug 2018 at 03:36.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 03:37
  #15642 (permalink)  
 
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Well Fred, since we seem to see eye to eye on the basics, I wonder why we are so often in disagreement?

You have by your comments above, a good understanding of essential American values. Your country is, of course, free to allign itself with whoever you think will advance your own values and interests, and you would rather see that choice be America than China. Good for us and good for you.

Those American values are quite clearly codified. That’s what the Constitution and its amendments are all about. But in recent years we have seen those values chipped away. Political correctness has overcome the First Amendment. I’ll leave the Second Amendment for another time, but... The imposition of identity politics, with selected sectors of the population being made into wards of the state. The idea that individual accomplishments are things to be removed rather than celebrated. That laws are to be selectively applied, depending on the political purpose. That borders are not important.

Well a good sector of the populace said Enough! We are tired of being denigrated for thinking traditionally. And were willing to vote in a crude and poorly spoken man who is nevertheless willing to stand up for those values, bypass the political rot that got us where we are, and rebuild foreign relationships based on what is best for Americans, not despots.

It’s a messy process. The political establishment, aided by the entrenched media, are not reliquishing without a major fight.

Stick with us, Fred, look past the man’s personal silliness, and try to see the better times ahead.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 04:04
  #15643 (permalink)  
 
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"Federal offices are “at large”, no districts."

Gerrymandering does not have a huge impact on the presidential election.

But it is significant at state level and it is at state level that gerrymandering has been widely employed to skew power towards the Republicans.

Who then use these states to enact voter supression laws, that have a huge impact at presidential level.

The Democrats have forgotten that ALL politics is local.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 04:24
  #15644 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oicur12.again View Post
"Federal offices are “at large”, no districts."

Gerrymandering does not have a huge impact on the presidential election.

But it is significant at state level and it is at state level that gerrymandering has been widely employed to skew power towards the Republicans.

Who then use these states to enact voter supression laws, that have a huge impact at presidential level.

The Democrats have forgotten that ALL politics is local.
That would seem to indicate that the Republicans are better politicians than the Democrats. Because - gerrymandering is not unique to one party. I guess the RNC is just better at the process. I thought the elites were so smart? Let a bunch of rubes from fly-over country beat the coastal brain trust. Shocking.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 05:38
  #15645 (permalink)  
 
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Jerry (Brown) Mandering.

Originally Posted by oicur12.again View Post
"Federal offices are “at large”, no districts."

Gerrymandering does not have a huge impact on the presidential election. Wrong. It has NO impact.

But it is significant at state level and it is at state level that gerrymandering has been widely employed to skew power towards the Republicans. Again, wrong, statewide races are not impacted at all by gerrymandering.

Who then use these states to enact voter supression laws, that have a huge impact at presidential level. True, just as the Democrats, but it is the “shape” of the district that includes/excludes specific voters. It isn’t “suppression” it is elimination.

The Democrats have forgotten that ALL politics is local. Wrong, Democrats have forgotten nothing. Both parties engage in this insidious practice..
In the scheme of things, gerrymandering is a wash, except in dominant states, where a “supermajority” of registered voters can dominate all process (California).

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Old 31st Aug 2018, 17:01
  #15646 (permalink)  

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"Well a good sector of the populace said Enough! We are tired of being denigrated for thinking traditionally (just as I am...). And were willing to vote in a crude and poorly spoken man who is nevertheless willing to stand up for those values, bypass the political rot that got us where we are, and rebuild foreign relationships based on what is best for Americans, not despots." Well, sincerely, good for them and about time! Unfortunately they were sold a small-time New York grifter who didn't give a shit about them apart from vote-fodder.

If I thought for a minute that DJT was "...willing to stand up for those values, bypass the political rot that got us where we are, and rebuild foreign relationships based on what is best for Americans, not despots.", then I might well be able to overlook the crudity/poor speaking and support him.

But all I see is a supremely egotistical, amoral, petty and fundamentally dishonest man with no dignity and no true beliefs, who sees no contradiction in abandoning the ideals that led to the birth of the American nation for his own vainglory.

It appears that John McCain disliked and distrusted DJT - if so, he had very good reasons to (and vice versa)

Mac
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 21:13
  #15647 (permalink)  
 
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Well Mac, it is unlikely you will change your view. We simply disagree. All I can suggest is that you find something more positive to devote your energies to. Trump is still the president, is not going to be removed from office, and is not likely to change his ways. Given the economic uptick (as Clinton famously said: "It's the economy, stupid.") it is very likely he will be re-elected in 2020.

I guess you can hope for him to croak. But that seems a rather petty political stand.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 00:32
  #15648 (permalink)  
 
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But all I see is a supremely egotistical, amoral, petty and fundamentally dishonest man with no dignity and no true beliefs, who sees no contradiction in abandoning the ideals that led to the birth of the American nation for his own vainglory
That could be said of all politicians Mac, recent events in our Oz a prime example. They are there to feed from the trough and wallow in the exercise of power, not to do what is required - govern in the interests of the people.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 08:08
  #15649 (permalink)  
 
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When is the 51st state going to be recognised??

It has the greatest population of any of the other states.

It is the State of Delusion, and you all appear to be in it. Forrest Trump is the State Governor.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 16:01
  #15650 (permalink)  
 
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Mexico has first right of refusal as the 51st.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 17:06
  #15651 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
Uh - don't lump all of us veterans together. Trump(if that's whom you are referring to) disrespected McCain who is one veteran. On balance, I think you'll find the majority of vets are just fine with Trump. BTW, I was taught as a young man that respect is earned. When a person waffles on basically everything for 30 years, it does not engender respect. Particularly when one stabs their political party in the back, and uses their position of power to personally attempt to destroy a fellow party member, and leader of that political group. This is called being disrespectful, and McCain was the poster boy for back-stabbing, lying, underhanded chicanery. McCain makes Johnson look like an alter boy.
Was it when Trump avoided thedraft that he earned the respect of the veterans? Or when he hounded the president over his nationality apparently based on nothing more than his skin colour? Or when he boasted about assaulting women? Or when he paid off a porn star? Ahh I get it, you can turn a blind eye to all that because of his extraordinary prowess as a businessman. If we ignore all the bankruptcies and that he would have done better on what he inherited by putting it in a nice savings account.

I'm genuinely curious, I can see people turning to Trump as the lesser of two evils. But mentioning respect in the context of him earning it over John Mcain?

One can only imagine the howls if Obama had made the kind of comments about a war hero or the family of one lost in combat that Trump did. Safe to assume his patriotism would have been questioned and his race/religion given as proof of his lack thereof. It would have been very very ugly. Maybe consider your own position on that one
The mental distortions of the average Trump supporter are incredible. I'm give him one thing, he knew what he was doing running for that party. Pavlovs dog comes to mind.
​​​​
Trouble is, we live in a world where its more important to be right and see the other 'side' lose, than to do what is right.
​​​
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 19:28
  #15652 (permalink)  
 
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“...Trouble is, we live in a world where its more important to be right and see the other 'side' lose, than to do what is right...”

Amen.

Further, It is not difficult to be “right”, when one depends on data that is wrong. Most data available at the popular level these days is opinion masquerading as research, or reporting...”

To be “right” then, It is sufficient to merely repeat agreement with the “accepted” dogma...


One can be “correct” and be completely wrong.

To be right according to the old way is to be conversant with what is TRUE.

The American Public is binary. They live in “either or”. Since more important than truth is emotion, it is preferred to be “passionate”. Truth is nice, but one can only do or be one thing at a time. The person who is loudest is right.

Just sayin

“Truth is not related to volume...”



Last edited by Concours77; 1st Sep 2018 at 19:59.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 07:39
  #15653 (permalink)  
 
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I can understand why some people support Trump despite him being a bully and a liar. The left wing liberal ideology is not a very comforting alternative.

However, what are the costs? Trump is alienating the friends of the USA. Sometimes we need friends. Look at the aftermath of September the 11th. All of Americas friends rallied behind the USA in the subsequent efforts. What would happen now?

Trump is dividing the country. A lot of energy is being focused on internal strife that would be better spent on real issues. The strife is created by Trump, not the media. I can recall a theatre fire in Russia where many people died. I saw Putin on TV. He stood up and apologized to the people. What would Trump do? We know the answer.

The USA was a great country.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 14:47
  #15654 (permalink)  
 
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The USA was a great country.
The USA is a great country, we are just going through a rough patch where we don't have a great leader.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 15:47
  #15655 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cool Guys View Post
I can understand why some people support Trump despite him being a bully and a liar. The left wing liberal ideology is not a very comforting alternative.

However, what are the costs? Trump is alienating the friends of the USA. Sometimes we need friends. Look at the aftermath of September the 11th. All of Americas friends rallied behind the USA in the subsequent efforts. What would happen now?

Trump is dividing the country. A lot of energy is being focused on internal strife that would be better spent on real issues. The strife is created by Trump, not the media. I can recall a theatre fire in Russia where many people died. I saw Putin on TV. He stood up and apologized to the people. What would Trump do? We know the answer.

The USA was a great country.
Some good points above, but remember there are other sides to these facets

Some may think the USA is a great country, but others within the country don't think it is good enough to survive in the status quo (hence along comes Trump)

Our friends are still our friends, but we are undergoing change in our strategy. We feel our friends will still be our friends because we have similar ideals even though we are intending to win a hand in poker instead of folding all the time.

Yes Trump is dividing the country not unlike Obama did.

That's what happens when you play to the press that are mostly interested in selling confrontations between the thems and us

If he didn't play the PR game we would call him weak and so would our enemies.

Our next president would do likewise, because that's the way the press likes it as it feeds the masses who only follow their day to day routines
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 16:13
  #15656 (permalink)  
 
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Lomapaseo, I’ve seen this said before, can you explain it for me? How did Obama divide the country? I did not find him divisive. I felt he worked to bring us together as a country and a society.

Obama’s speeches were articulate. I enjoyed watching him speak

To many, trump doesn’t come across as “strong”, he comes across unhinged. His speeches are word salad, His public pouting is embarrassing and the lies are ridiculous.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 16:56
  #15657 (permalink)  
 
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DeaCerte, not answering for Lomo, but for myself:

Obama came into office with a huge amount of goodwill, including my vote in 2008. The potential was there for him to be a bipartisan and biracial leader, to perhaps begin to bridge the racial divide in this country. That is how he campaigned. But within a short time he was simply promoting the progressive view, namely that white folks just had to stop being so dominant and minorities were right in most all their demands. Remember the “beer summit”? Remember “Elections have consequences, Republicans need to go to the back of the bus”?

As he went forward, there was little in the way of give and take in his long droning lectures, and plenty of him directing us how we should think, on virtually any topic. He ignored Congress completely. Everything to him was a political point to be made, with little effort to reconcile any differences.

Trump certainly has his issues. But his predecessor was by no means perfect.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 16:59
  #15658 (permalink)  
 
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Iomapaseo: "Our friends are still our friends". You think? Maybe read some non-US papers.
Some former allies are getting well and truly pissed off by your "President's" tweets and attitude.
USA is well and truly past it, and your pres has become an irrelevance.
"Make America great again"? More like the laughing stock of the world.
Best of luck.
Per
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 17:48
  #15659 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Iomapaseo: "Our friends are still our friends". You think? Maybe read some non-US papers.
Some former allies are getting well and truly pissed off by your "President's" tweets and attitude.
USA is well and truly past it, and your pres has become an irrelevance.
"Make America great again"? More like the laughing stock of the world.
Best of luck.
Per
Drama queen much?


Then why don’t you provide evidence? Criticism and disagreements among allies should not be confused as alliance ending. Obama was cool to the UK and downright hostile to Israel yet both relationships are strong. Your nation sleeps well knowing that the US is guaranteeing your safety, thats an indication of how strong the relationship the US has with its friends.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 19:29
  #15660 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post


Drama queen much?


Then why don’t you provide evidence? Criticism and disagreements among allies should not be confused as alliance ending. Obama was cool to the UK and downright hostile to Israel yet both relationships are strong. Your nation sleeps well knowing that the US is guaranteeing your safety, thats an indication of how strong the relationship the US has with its friends.
The "evidence" is easily found, you may find understanding foreign languages to be an advantage.
Where did i mention "alliance ending"? I said "pissed off".
I sleep very well without the support of the US, thank you very much.
Per
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