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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 28th Aug 2018, 02:21
  #15601 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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EC

“In China if you don't fervently follow the rule in large cities, you can go away for a long, long, long time.”

I think you have confused civil obedience and rule compliance with patriotism. They are very different things.

“I would say in the US we have the widest range and latitude of patriotism of any nation”

Really, ever refused to remove your hat at a baseball game during the anthem? Try it one day and see what happens.

Is it a legal requirement to be patriotic in the US or are people free to decide for themselves?
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 07:10
  #15602 (permalink)  
 
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That's a good question. Trump is on record as wanting the USA to be more like North Korea in the way that North Koreans manifest patriotic love of their leader, Marshal Kim Jong Un. Real patriotism or forced, fake patriotism ... it's all the same to Donald. “He [Marshal Kim Jong Un] speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”

Just stand there and salute him, or at least "sit up at attention," whatever that means, when whether you are doing that with a gun held to your head or not should not really matter to Trump.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 08:58
  #15603 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...s-us-fdm5p2c5s

Most Palestinians are no longer refugees, says US

The Trump administration is planning to change unilaterally the definition of a Palestinian refugee and slash the number it recognises by nine tenths in its latest attempt to “break and remake” the Middle East.

President Trump and Jared Kushner, his son-in-law and Middle East adviser, are believed to have decided that all but 500,000 of the 5.5 million Palestinian refugees should be stripped of their status. The proposal, to be announced next month, will be part of a new strategy that will also involve reductions in the large amounts of money the US gives to the Palestinian territories. In January Mr Trump cut aid to the UN agency responsible for the Palestinians, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA)......

The strategy is also expected to take off the table, for the most part, the issue of the right of return of Palestinian refugees to Israel, which has been a significant factor in the collapse of previous rounds of peace talks.

Mr Kushner said in recently leaked emails to his colleagues that the goal “can’t be to keep things stable and as they are. Sometimes you have to strategically risk breaking things.” He and Jason Greenblatt, the US envoy to the Middle East peace process, are working on what is claimed will be “the most detailed peace plan ever” and “the deal of the century”.

Its details are a closely guarded secret but are said to include the Palestinians giving up the right of return and other key demands in return for a state that would be restricted in size and autonomy. Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is believed to have been tasked with ensuring that the Palestinian Authority accepts the plan, at least as a basis for negotiations.......

The latest proposals are clearly intended to set up a framework for some kind of Palestinian state that would not challenge Israel’s security and would be manageable for the Gulf states that are likely to have to fund it. However, it would shift the “burden of care” for the remaining Palestinians and their political futures to Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, the fragile neighbouring states where most live.

There are more than two million registered refugees in the West Bank and Gaza, out of a total population in the two territories of about four million. The remaining three and a half million Palestinian refugees live mainly in the three neighbouring countries, where UNRWA is responsible for their education and welfare.......

Mr Kushner’s emails suggested he believed that the existence of UNRWA was preventing the Palestinian issue from being settled, because it implied that the refugees were only temporary rather than permanent residents of neighbouring states. “It is important to have an honest and sincere effort to disrupt UNRWA,” one email said. “This [agency] perpetuates a status quo, is corrupt, inefficient and doesn’t help peace.”

Jordan, Syria and Lebanon all fear that accepting refugees as full nationals would be politically destabilising. In the case of Syria and particularly Lebanon, where Shia and Sunni Muslims and Christians each make up roughly a third of the population, it could upset already unstable sectarian relations, as the overwhelming majority of the Palestinian refugees are Sunni Muslim........









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Old 28th Aug 2018, 14:20
  #15604 (permalink)  
 
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There may be movement on the Palestinian refuge front, but I can say with some amount of certainty, that the 'homeland' will not include any territory within the bounds of Israel. There might be some scrub land out in the Gaza but there is not going to be anything for Palestine in or around Jerusalem or the other ancient cities. Not, gonna, happen.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 15:31
  #15605 (permalink)  

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Although his political views were often at odds with my own, I respected Senator John McCain as an honest and honorable man who literally fought and endured for his country.

The reraising of the White House flag only a day and a bit after McCain's death was a nasty, petty little act of revenge by a man not even fit to shine McCain's shoes.
The relowering of the flag later on Monday speaks of a man who doesn't even have the courage of his convictions.

An undignified and disgusting act by an undignified and disgusting man. Faugh!

Mac
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 15:39
  #15606 (permalink)  
 
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"An undignified and disgusting act by an undignified and disgusting man"

Indeed. Twill be interesting to see if he ever carries on about respecting the flag at football games again.

I am deeply embarrassed for my several valued American friends right now!!!
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 17:37
  #15607 (permalink)  
 
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A bunch of you here, particularly outside the US, have this newfound love for McCain simply because he hated Trump. Where was all that affection when he was running against BO?

Those of us here who had to deal with his political waffling, dressed up as “the maverick”, often had different viewpoints.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 18:21
  #15608 (permalink)  

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OBG, I'd heard of McCain long before Trump hove into view (they never showed his TV show here). I watched him speak during the campaign/s and although he's a bit to the right of me, he always spoke sensibly and sanely. I might even had voted for him if Obama had been less charismatic. As a Senator, it always seemed to me that he was willing to listen to other views and compromise on bipartisan matters, working within the system for ALL the American people.

So its no "newfound love for McCain" and a surprisingly shabby riposte from you.

Mac
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 19:23
  #15609 (permalink)  
 
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Not shabby at all, Mac. I'm simply watching our media this week worshipping a man they spent the past couple of decades berating whenever he said something Republicanish, then all of a sudden when he joins them in his dislike for Trump he is elevated to sainthood.

Moreover, McCain's hatred of Trump was purely and simply because Trump said a stupid and insulting comment about him. Trump's policies and successes were of no importance to him.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 19:39
  #15610 (permalink)  
 
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I think that John McCain did not bother to hate Trump; he was a bigger man than that. After all, he was for better relations with Vietnam, after enduring torture at the hands of the Vietnamese. A few cheap shots from this mental midget Trump would have been as nothing compared to what he suffered at the hands of the Vietnamese. If he did not hate them, why should he have hated Trump? On the other hand, to view Trump as one would view something nasty you find on the sole of your shoe, yes, probably he did do that, but that's contempt, not hatred. (Trump can handle hatred; contempt, though, poses him a problem he can't handle as well, perhaps not at all.)

It's telling that McCain broke with Trump over Trump's cheap comments about how he was able to treat women, when most Republicans just went along with those. OB, for you still to back Trump when he's shown so openly what a grossly deficient little man he really is ... that's kind of surprising. I would have expected you to have bailed on him by now. If educated people such as yourself still cling to this Orange Abomination, what hope is there for his base, the "deplorables," ever to gag over what they swallow from him every day?

I think we are going to have to write you Trump boosters off and hope that you all end up safely encysted, left to fester off there in a corner of our body politic.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 20:01
  #15611 (permalink)  
 
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I guess, Chuks, I can put you down in the "once a hero always a hero" camp. So be it.

I've never been a "backer" of Trump, Chuks. He was the lesser of the 2 evils in 2016, and I do appreciate the successes which the country is having with him as occupant at 1600. He is a nasty piece of work, but I rejoice each day that the even nastier one is not in control there.

Your bunch, though, is still unable to get past that historic election day, and cannot accept that anyone might have a legitimate opinion which differs from yours.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 21:14
  #15612 (permalink)  
 
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OB, you guys have been sold a bill of goods: America was in such a dire state that only a stinker such as Trump could turn things around. (There's a strong echo there of the rhetoric that brought Hitler to power, not that most Americans seem to know much about his rise to power.)

Could you name a few of these "successes" that Trump has had? Are you thinking of the way that he ended the nuclear threat from North Korea, perhaps?

I don't have all that many people who share my opinions, OB!
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 22:23
  #15613 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Your bunch, though, is still unable to get past that historic election day.....
This is, of course, the continuing Big Lie.

Trump won. I doubt you can identify anyone of any stature who denies that. The last election is over and done with. The problem is not "that historic election day," but Trump's ongoing behavior since that election day (and possibly some illegal activity before that election day).

What was your reaction, OB, when John McCain beat Ann Kirkpatrick in 2014? Satisfaction? Or sorrow?

Exactly like Barack Obama, Trump and the 'pubs have bought themselves a nice recovery - with $1.5 trillion of their grandkids' (and your grandkids') money. Proud of that, are we? Trump and Kudlow think free enterprise in the U.S. should be "investigated" (cf: Google). That's a conservative Republican value, is it? Trump and his negotiators have just negotiated a "minimum wage" for auto-parts workers of $16 per hour, for at least 40-45% of workers. Personally, I'm all for increasing any minimum wage - but is that really what you had in mind?
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 00:31
  #15614 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not going to engage in listmaking, Chuks. Obviously things that we on the right see as improvements, the left sees as dangerous regression. How it is bad that jobs are picking up, manufacturing and business leaders are professing optimism about the American economy? -- this is simply unfathomable.

Since you brought up Norky: nobody has suggested that the problems of that potentially dangerous place are solved. But what prograss has been made in the past several decades? At this point it is a matter of two steps ahead and one step back, with occasionally three steps back. We're a long way from resolving the issue, and it could still all go to pot, but Trump's unpredictable nature seems to be having some effect on the fat boy there. Why not let it play out, rather than deciding now that a nuclear exchange is going to be just next week?
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 00:34
  #15615 (permalink)  
 
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PIF:
What was your reaction, OB, when John McCain beat Ann Kirkpatrick in 2014? Satisfaction? Or sorrow?
Actually I didn't think about it for one minute. Because McCain didn't run in 2014. But facts don't really matter, do they?

In general, though, as you are well aware, incumbent senators are only rarely defeated. It's never a surprise when they win.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 03:57
  #15616 (permalink)  
 
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It would be a short list!

OB, you were the one doing "iistmaking" by citing "successes."

Please give us examples of "the successes which the country is having with [Trump] as occupant at 1600." As you probably know, economic success has been consistently achieved since the time of Obama, or not if you simply go by what Mr Pattern just stated. Either way, it's not really down to Trump, despite his claims to the contrary. In fact, his trade war threatens to undo that "success."

Trump's clumsy attempt at diplomacy with Kim Jong Un, on the other hand, is, so far, a failure that Trump was so unwise as first to call an unpreceented success: the ending of the North Korean nuclear threat, put down to his unique insights into the veracity and dependability of such people as Kim Jong Un (and Vladimir Putin).

Trump as a judge of character, when we can see how many people he trusted with his deepest secrets are now turning state's evidence? Bitch, please!

Now Trump's North Korea success is a failure, due to lack of "significant progress." All Trump achieved that really mattered was to gift Kim that high-level meeting. (Boxes of old bones, remains of long-dead GIs, do not count for much, while hostage releases just mean that someone else gets grabbed later; ending Kim's practice of hostage-taking would be a real success.)

OB, if you can't see that Trump failures lauded with lies as successes are dangerous then you might be living happily very close to a vast, decaying dump for a lot of fissile material.

Last edited by chuks; 29th Aug 2018 at 04:24.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 04:53
  #15617 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
But facts don't really matter, do they?
If you say so. Actually, I was misled by the fact that AZ will hold two elections to replace McCain, a special in 2020 and another to get back on cycle in 2022.

Interesting that you dwell on the minutia of an election year - which is not going to win or lose any argument - while carefully avoiding the substance of the policy questions I raised.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 05:22
  #15618 (permalink)  

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From POLITICO:

Respect the process. Here’s how McCain thought Congress was supposed to work, in six steps: public introduction of a proposal, official public hearings, committee action, referral to full House and Senate for consideration, amendment, and up or down vote. The modern Congress has shelved this process in favor of an ad hoc system administered by the majority in which all too often major legislation is shaped in secret, sprung on the full body, barely read or understood, and, when approved, passed along mainly partisan lines. The practice assures the enactment of laws rife with unintended consequences while intensifying partisan animosity. It means that on major pieces of legislation nearly half of Congress and the public feel alienated and cheated. Moreover, it assures that when majorities flip, the new party in power repays the favor. This lack of “regular order” was a prime reason for McCain’s controversial vote against the Obamacare repeal. To have been the deciding vote in concert with one’s party to erase the centerpiece accomplishment of the individual who defeated you in a presidential election would have been all too tempting for a typical politician. Not McCain. He cared deeply about process, because to him, it was essential to democracy.

Respect!

Mac
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 05:31
  #15619 (permalink)  
 
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In the meantime Trump's approval rating keeps ticking up

We're talking decimals of a percent, but over 18 months those decimals add up: 37 to 43.7 according to RCP.

That said the Dems have 56% to work with.

2018 Dem turnout in the primaries often outnumbers GOP turnout.

Vote suppression may have turned WI to Trump. Lots of older black ladies without driver licenses, who were long time voters, were denied a ballot last time around

I remain amazed that anybody who openly disrespects veterans and at least one Gold Star family got into the WH.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 06:52
  #15620 (permalink)  
 
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Vote suppression may have turned WI to Trump. Lots of older black ladies without driver licenses, who were long time voters, were denied a ballot last time around
Any real evidence for this, RBF? Or are you just throwing out Democrat talking points.

The unfortunate reality is that in the USA we have absolutely no idea if there is or is not voter fraud, because nobody is allowed to ask the question, and the Democrats fight like crazy to avoid Voter ID or proof of citizenship to vote. I can't think of any other nation of significance with worse voter regulations. Even in your country, the enumerators come around and tally everyone prior to important elections. (Yes indeed, I voted in Canada for a number of years.)
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