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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 18th Jun 2018, 18:26
  #14441 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Octane View Post
Hardly the sign of a healthy democracy. Now an unhinged, unqualified, corrupt, semi literate, incoherent and unrepentant president .
Not making any comment on your opinion, but what qualifications do you require to be a President? In fact, what qualifications do you need to be elected to any political post?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 19:37
  #14442 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
As well as counting the votes honestly you also need voter ID to ensure that only those entitled to vote actually do - without that your Democratic system is flawed.
It always strikes me as amusing - in a sick kind of way - that conservatives, who've expounded and expounded on the rights of the individual, have become so enamored of IDs. "Your papers, PLIS, Mein Herr!"

But if that's the way they want it, then fine. However, the burden of proving that an individual is not qualified to vote must fall on the State, not on the individual. Voting is a right, and no individual shall be required to provide proof of that right, any more than an individual under trial for a criminal act can be required to prove their innocence. If the State cannot prove their guilt, they go free. If the State cannot prove they are not qualified to vote - they vote.

No voter identity program will be perfect - there will always be bureaucratic failures and mistakes. One has the choice of placing the burden of such errors on the individual ("It is better that a hundred legitimate voters be denied their rights, than that even one illegitimate voter sneak through by mistake") - or placing the burden on the State ("It is better that a hundred illegitimate voters sneak through by mistake, than that even one legitimate voter be denied their rights.")

The second approach is the one that maximizes human rights and freedoms. The first will function to reduce the liberties and freedoms of individuals. But if one prefers the State over the individual, I guess that makes sense. "Your papers, PLIS!"

https://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf...eys_drive.html
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 19:49
  #14443 (permalink)  
 
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In countries where no voter ID is required , after voting you get ink on your thumb.
The ink washes off after a couple of days, but it does prevent busloads of dead people voting at twelve different polls on voting day in some cities.
Rather than the cute little sticker saying that you voted. Dip your thumb in ink that proves you have given a thumbs up to the conversation
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 20:06
  #14444 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post


If Germany decided to spend zero, that would be just fine according to your logic.

More likely Germany invests in another social program that lowers its defense spending knowing the nuclear umbrella still protects them.


You have either completely failed to grasp what Uncle Fred stated, or perhaps, maybe...nope it's just you don't get it isnt it?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 21:21
  #14445 (permalink)  
 
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VAP, you and I have no idea how many or how few illegal votes are cast, because we are not allowed to ask the question.

The Constitution is clear. Citizens vote. Noncitizens cannot. I lived in the US for 35 years asa resident alien. There was nothing. Nada. to prevent me from voting all that time. When I took out citizenship I swore that I had not voted illegally. But there was no checking of that.
What the hell is wrong with identifying voters? Every other democratic country does. Why shouldn’t the US?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 22:13
  #14446 (permalink)  
 
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. It always strikes me as amusing - in a sick kind of way - that conservatives, who've expounded and expounded on the rights of the individual, have become so enamored of IDs. "Your papers, PLIS, Mein Herr!"
Drama queen material. Next we don’t require drivers licenses?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 22:41
  #14447 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
It always strikes me as amusing - in a sick kind of way - that conservatives, who've expounded and expounded on the rights of the individual, have become so enamored of IDs. "Your papers, PLIS, Mein Herr!"

What a strange comment. You have to prove entitlement to access all forms of State services, why should voting be any different?

Why are Liberals so opposed to ensuring the voting system is secure?. They make a song and dance about Russia supposedly hacking the system but dont care who actually votes on the day.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:19
  #14448 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
VAP, you and I have no idea how many or how few illegal votes are cast, because we are not allowed to ask the question.


Accusations of voter fraud is just another way the GOP tries to disenfranchise non-white voters that are likely to be anti-Republican. It has been so for decades now. This should be the end of the discussion, but the GOP brings out this same old tired chestnut election year after election year.

I lived in the US for 35 years asa resident alien. There was nothing. Nada. to prevent me from voting all that time. When I took out citizenship I swore that I had not voted illegally. But there was no checking of that.
It's called a voter registration list that each precinct generates every single election year. Violation of a 1996 Federal law specifically aimed at resident aliens can lead to imprisonment, fines or deportment.

What the hell is wrong with identifying voters? Every other democratic country does. Why shouldn’t the US?
What the hell is wrong with your reading comprehension?

Originally Posted by vapilot
While I have no problem with a national voter ID system, the fact remains, there has been a mere handful of cases of proven voter fraud in the US over the past few decades.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:22
  #14449 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
Why are Liberals so opposed to ensuring the voting system is secure?
Because 99% of corpses vote Democrat. Just imagine how many more states Trump would have won if there was voter ID to stop illegals and corpses voting. Or how rapidly voter ID would be imposed if 99% of corpses voted Republican.

And the hilarious part is that the left are always demanding that America be more like Europe, except in voting, where they actively oppose European-style voter ID.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:31
  #14450 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
Not making any comment on your opinion, but what qualifications do you require to be a President? In fact, what qualifications do you need to be elected to any political post?
The official qualifications: at least 35 years old, residency for 14 years prior to the election, and one must be a natural born citizen.

There are traditional, yet unofficial qualifications and norms, however, that were short-circuited in 2016. The GOP, in the worst mistake in US electoral history, nominated a man who flouts many of them. This list is by no means exhaustive, but Trump's major offenses are as follows...

Trump is:
1. A proven, serial liar
2. A self-admitted sexual predator
3. A racist and hate monger
4. A serial bankruptcy king
5. A man who hides his domestic financial dealings and tax returns
6. A man who has extensive financing obligations to foreign powers
7. A draft dodger
8. A man with a demonstrated lack of respect for our Veterans and war heroes
9. A man of low morals

Let us face facts - had Obama demonstrated any one of the above moral shortcomings, he would have been disqualified immediately.

Because 99% of corpses vote Democrat. Just imagine how many more states Trump would have won if there was voter ID to stop illegals and corpses voting. Or how rapidly voter ID would be imposed if 99% of corpses voted Republican.
Baseless accusations aka another load of crap.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:34
  #14451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
Accusations of voter fraud is just another way the GOP tries to disenfranchise non-white voters that are likely to be anti-Republican. It has been so for decades now. This should be the end of the discussion, but the GOP brings out this same old tired chestnut election year after election year.
"It was supposed to be the study that proved voter ID laws are not just discriminatory but can also have a big impact on elections. And it was picked up widely, with outlets including ThinkProgress and the Washington Post reporting that the study found voter ID laws hurt Hispanic voters in particular and skewed elections to the right.

But a follow-up study suggests the findings in the original were bunk."




https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...oter-id-racism
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:45
  #14452 (permalink)  
 
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The fact remains, there have been very few cases of proven voter fraud. It is an old chestnut that majorities on both sides of the political aisle agree upon - voter fraud is practically and statistically a non-issue.

Voter ID laws have historically been enacted in southern states with racist tendencies (and, interestingly enough, a large part of Trump's base) to disenfranchise minority voters. In fact, such attempts were serious enough to lead to the passage of several Federal laws passed by Congress to prevent this kind of discrimination at the polls going back to the Civil Rights era.

It's helpful to know a little US history for context.
Are you a citizen of the US, BAengineer?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:50
  #14453 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
The fact remains, there have been very few cases of proven voter fraud.
Well, no. It's committed almost exclusively by Democrats, and, as we've seen so clearly in the last few years, the law doesn't apply to them.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 23:55
  #14454 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MG23 View Post
Well, no. It's committed almost exclusively by Democrats, and, as we've seen so clearly in the last few years, the law doesn't apply to them.
Got a link to your InfoWars article? Or did this come from Breitfart or perhaps Rush Limpbowels?
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 00:10
  #14455 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
The fact remains, there have been very few cases of proven voter fraud. It is an old chestnut that majorities on both sides of the political aisle agree upon - voter fraud is practically and statistically a non-issue.

Voter ID laws have historically been enacted in southern states with racist tendencies (and, interestingly enough, a large part of Trump's base) to disenfranchise minority voters. In fact, such attempts were serious enough to lead to the passage of several Federal laws passed by Congress to prevent this kind of discrimination at the polls going back to the Civil Rights era.

It's helpful to know a little US history for context.
Are you a citizen of the US, BAengineer?
No, but I do spend a lot of time there. Most countries around the world have voter ID laws to prevent fraud, one of the main exceptions being the UK where voter fraud is fairly widespread and we have the same issue where liberal politicianss block the introduction of ID's requirements because they benefit from that fraud.

Why get all exercised about alleged vote rigging by the Russians where there is no proof at all that happened and ignore real vote rigging by ineligible voters?
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 00:18
  #14456 (permalink)  
 
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Russia meddling is not about voter fraud - it is about illegal foreign influence. There is a difference. One has been proved, the other, not so much.

As I stated earlier:

Originally Posted by vapilot
While I have no problem with a national voter ID system, the fact remains, there has been a mere handful of cases of proven voter fraud in the US over the past few decades
So as you may comprehend, I am not against a national ID system. While we are at it, the same ID card should be used with a national firearms and ammunition database. No ID? Sorry Bub, no gun or ammo. The same ID could also lead to a way forward in our current debate on immigration reform.

The idea of a national ID is problematic, however, in that it would go against state's rights advocates, many of whom are self-proclaimed 'Libertarians' or members of the Republican Party.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 00:42
  #14457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
The official qualifications: at least 35 years old, residency for 14 years prior to the election, and one must be a natural born citizen.

There are traditional, yet unofficial qualifications and norms, however, that were short-circuited in 2016. The GOP, in the worst mistake in US electoral history, nominated a man who flouts many of them. This list is by no means exhaustive, but Trump's major offenses are as follows...

.
Wrong as usual. The worst mistake in electoral history was the Dems running Hillary, she being the one person Trump could defeat. And did.




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Old 19th Jun 2018, 01:27
  #14458 (permalink)  
 
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VAP, I shudder to think how you got through school, unable as you are to read and comprehend. Your understanding of the voter registration process across America is just your imagination.

If a resident alien wishes to vote, especially if they do not appear “foreign” all they had to do was sign up when the registrar came calling. Now they dont even have to do that, as the voter lists in my state are generated from driver licenses. The penalties provided in law dont get assessed if you never look for offenders.

There is positively no accounting done as to whether this is a frequent or rare event, as studies on the subject are forbidden.


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Old 19th Jun 2018, 03:44
  #14459 (permalink)  
 
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Obgraham, once again you take a very Trump-esque stance - personally attacking rather than providing any substantive response.

The act of signing a registrar's list does not a registered voter make. It is only the first step of many.

Why are you shuddering? Come in from the cold. Switch off the InfoWars or Limbowels. They're not great sources on reality. You'll be better off, I swear.

Originally Posted by West Coast View Post


Wrong as usual. The worst mistake in electoral history was the Dems running Hillary, she being the one person Trump could defeat. And did.


In the exasperated words of (then) presidential candidate Reagan, "there you go again". Don't lay the enormous failure of the Republican Party at the doorstep of Democrats.

Democrats weren't running in the disastrous 2016 GOP primary - one that had several electable candidates on offer other than your pal Trump.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 04:13
  #14460 (permalink)  
 
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Voter fraud does exist!

After the last presidential election there was at least one documented case of voter fraud. It involved a woman legally entitled to vote who voted twice. She was afraid that her vote would not be counted by those "liberals" ... because she had voted for Donald John Trump. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7900886.html

On the other hand, Trump's repeated, loud claims of millions of illegal votes cheating him out of his deserved victory in the popular vote were found to be unsupportable. Never mind what the investigation found, Trump still makes those claims.

It might be so that "[voter fraud is] committed almost exclusively by Democrats ... " but one documented case I am aware of was that of this woman who voted twice for Trump. (Hang in there, woman; a Presidential pardon is definitely something you, just like Michael Cohen, can hope for. Maybe the Pardon Fairy leaves it under your pillow, just like the way that the Tooth Fairy used to leave a dime for a baby tooth.) If we take "exclusively" to mean what a dictionary says it does then MG23 is wrong.

In one case a white woman in Iowa voted twice for Trump and got two years probation and a $750 fine. In another case a black woman in Texas got five years imprisonment for voting illegally for Hillary Clinton. Those are the only two cases I have read about.

Another one who's wrong is BAengineer, with his "Why get all exercised about alleged vote rigging by the Russians where there is no proof at all that happened and ignore real vote rigging by ineligible voters?" That would be for at least three reasons:

1. The allegations involved Russian interference in the election by, for example, providing illegal foreign help to one candidate, Donald Trump, and illegal foreign hindrance of the other, HIllary Clinton. It's not alleged that votes were rigged by the Russians, but that votes were affected by Russian actions, actions coördinated with the Trump campaign.

2. A meeting was held right there in Trump Tower. Trump later lied about its purpose after first failing to hide the fact that it happened at all, since it took place between Putin-linked Russians and Trump campaign people. It is not "proof" of Russian interference but it certainly does suggest interference.

3. I guess BAe means "illegal voting," because ineligible voters do that, not "vote rigging." In any case, both illegal voting and vote rigging have been looked into repeatedly, with both found not to be large problems when it comes to election integrity, despite whatever Trump has to say about those things.

It's nice that you take such a strong interest in our politics, BAe, but at least try to get your facts right when you argue Trump's case. Just because our President ignores proven fact does not mean that you should too. Wait for the Mueller probe to finish; that's when "proof" of whatever the Russians got up to colluding with Trump should come to light. What we have right now is evidence. Evidence is not proof, no, but there's an abundance of evidence of what Russia got up to with Trump.

Last edited by chuks; 19th Jun 2018 at 04:58.
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