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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 25th Jan 2017, 13:16
  #5381 (permalink)  
 
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Intent

The announcement will inflame the sanctuary types, as planned, and reinvigorate the discussion about the need for citizenship to vote, and the necessity of Voter ID.

Well played
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 13:31
  #5382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Trump building a wall?

Well he is only copying Europe - Greece, Macedonia, Latvia, Austria, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland - the list goes on. The UK as well of course, though we paid the French to build around our bridgehead, sorry railhead, outside Calais.
Finland has built a wall on our common border? News to me. I bet the Russkies are surprised too.
Per
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 14:43
  #5383 (permalink)  
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AM, they've had one for years - my last job saw designing and selling border/perimeter defence systems including ground sensors, EO cameras etc. We visited Helsinki for a couple of days when bidding for one of their upgrade programmes and had a tour of a section.

It's mainly electronic rather than wire as maintenance and usefulness in winter would be moot - but it's there, at least in the southern section. Use of drones to extend coverage to the north is of keen interest.

https://www.raja.fi/guidelines/the_border_zone

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish–Russian_border

The boxes on the poles are a microwave fence.


Last edited by ORAC; 25th Jan 2017 at 16:38.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 15:57
  #5384 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine the effect of mandatory use of E-Verify by ALL employers with Criminal Sanctions against Employers who do not, prospective Employee's who present Forged or Fraudulent Documents, and enforcement action against those who provide bogus ID Documents....including the Mexican Consulate Officials.

The United States has been used by Mexico as a form of "Social Security" with all of the money that is being sent to Mexico by Illegal Aliens working in the United States.

Of course Vicente Fox does not want that fecking Wall built....it would force Mexico to face up to its failure to provide Social Programs for its Citizens....something he failed to do as President.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 16:08
  #5385 (permalink)  
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" Imagine the effect of mandatory use of E-Verify by ALL employers with Criminal Sanctions against Employers who do not, prospective Employee's who present Forged or Fraudulent Documents, and enforcement action against those who provide bogus ID Documents....including the Mexican Consulate Officials "

That sounds like a perfect job creation scheme for a totalitarian state..... now doesn't it......alas, the above would require personnel to administer such vetting and I understand the new incumbent has put a freeze on recruitment in the public , or Federal I suppose, sector....apart from the military that is...which may have a certain relevance after all.

No doubt however, the private sector would be happy, for a few $$$'s of course, to provide this essential service....
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 16:24
  #5386 (permalink)  
 
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That sounds like a perfect job creation scheme for a totalitarian state..... now doesn't it
Psst...E verify has been around since the 90s, it came into being under that well known totalitarian Bill Clinton.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 16:48
  #5387 (permalink)  
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" Psst...E verify has been around since the 90s, it came into being under that well known totalitarian Bill Clinton"

I know, but, it was the "ALL" that suggested matters weren't quite as effective as they could be....and the new incumbents oft stated intentions for the future of the USA.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 25th Jan 2017 at 17:00.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 16:55
  #5388 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
AM, they've had one for years - my last job saw designing and selling border/perimeter defence systems including ground sensors, EO cameras etc. We visited Helsinki for a couple of days when bidding for one of their upgrade programmes and had a tour of a section.

It's mainly electronic rather than wire as maintenance and usefulness in winter would be moot - but it's there, at least in the southern section. Use of drones to extend coverage to the north is of keen interest.

https://www.raja.fi/guidelines/the_border_zone

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish–Russian_border

The boxes on the poles are a microwave fence.

It may be my limited English that causes some confusion. To me a wall is different to a fence. I knew about the fence, but I understood that to be a joint Finnish/Russian enterprise. We have a similar cooperation with the Russkies, except the last one we put up to sluse immigrants to the border crossing points.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 17:11
  #5389 (permalink)  
 
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Dejavudejavudejavu....

"Imagine the effect of mandatory use of E-Verify by ALL employers with Criminal Sanctions against Employers who do not, prospective Employee's who present Forged or Fraudulent Documents, and enforcement action against those who provide bogus ID Documents....including the Mexican Consulate "

The repetitious smokescreen descends yet again....

"Comprehensive Immigration Reform". That's dog whistle for amnesty, and unfettered immigration.

There are laws extant, replete with serious sanctions, including actual fines, even imprisonment....what lacks is enforcement.

I speak from extensive experience, having had a business that was destroyed by competition that violated the laws of which I speak.

I'd laugh at this "debate", but the level of ignorance is not that funny.....
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 01:53
  #5390 (permalink)  
 
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What I appreciate from vapilot2004 is the rich irony of preaching tolerance when Hilsry was the candidate and being hateful in the extreme when she lost. Hint, lefties, tolerance goes BOTH ways even when it isn't progressive.

GF
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 02:51
  #5391 (permalink)  
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There's a few more in China in this respect, but, as we know, having already annoyed... for no good reason..... the country in question, I felt some of our more right wing, asocial, misanthropes would feel inclined to reach for the smelling salts...... less
That may be your opinion K&C but I doubt the heads of multi national corporations would necessarily all agree with you, as Trump says, "fair but not free trade agreement".
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 02:53
  #5392 (permalink)  
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Climate change is another topic that tends to get a shade emotive at times, even if it's glaringly obvious.

That said, it's the last bit in this article which is the most disturbing to read....

More national parks appear to defy Trump on Twitter - BBC News

When factual expression is negated, nothing new here I grant you, it's been happening for years across the globe by Gov'ts various, then it's only a matter of time before all and any forms of freedoms of expression duly follow. This always helps if you have being an autocracy in mind....... and wish to stifle dissent and opposition

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 26th Jan 2017 at 04:06.
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 03:14
  #5393 (permalink)  
 
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It may be my limited English that causes some confusion. To me a wall is different to a fence.
Yes, the English language can be tricky. While there are many subtle variations of definitions depending on precisely which dictionary you use, generically the following are good descriptions (ignoring the other common uses of the words):

Wall (noun)
1. a continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land; or
2. a thing regarded as a protective or restrictive barrier.

Fence (noun)
1. a barrier, railing, or other upright structure, typically of wood or wire, enclosing an area of ground to prevent or control access or escape.

Simply put, in English, a fence being used to 'control access' could equally be seen as a 'protective or restrictive barrier and thus in this case either word would suffice to describe what you see in ORAC's picture. Equally the same could be said for the wall the United States of America has now decided to complete.

I hope this is of assistance with your limited English.

Regards
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 03:30
  #5394 (permalink)  
 
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit-proof_fence
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 08:06
  #5395 (permalink)  
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Call it an Iron Curtain if you wish......

Nothing new under the sun.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Customs_Line


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Hedge.../dp/1841194670
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 09:40
  #5396 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
His press secretary Mr Spicer, however, is plainly dafter than a whole sackfull of squirrels, and makes primordial slime look intelligent.

PDR
I agree. I imagine there was a conversation before the briefing. In that discussion Spicer should have said, "Mr. President, me going out there and lying in the face of truth is not going to play well. Not at all, sir". Instead we got the amateur hour with "alternative facts".

I have two working theories: 1. Trump truly is an idiot, or 2. This is a test run by the new Rove in town, Mr. Bannon, who has been chomping at the bit to employ his Breitfart disinformation tactics and to send a message in the form of an opening volley.
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 09:48
  #5397 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
What I appreciate from vapilot2004 is the rich irony of preaching tolerance when Hilsry was the candidate and being hateful in the extreme when she lost.

GF
That wasn't hate you heard from me after the election, GF. Honest to Pete, I was just callin' it like it was - a bunch of dumb asses in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan screwed the country, screwed the world - less than 1% of the vote decided this little clambake for everyone.

I don't hate Trump, although he is a dumb ass, nor do I hate his followers, GF. I pity them - not as much as I feel for minorities, undocumented hard working Mexicans, women, poor families, the middle class, and the increasing number of future terrorist victims, thanks to getting your party's nominee into orifice.

Hint, lefties, tolerance goes BOTH ways even when it isn't progressive.
Tolerance of intolerance will not be tolerated.
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 09:53
  #5398 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
I agree. I imagine there was a conversation before the briefing. In that discussion Spicer should have said, "Mr. President, me going out there and lying in the face of truth is not going to play well. Not at all, sir". Instead we got the amateur hour with "alternative facts".

I have two working theories: 1. Trump truly is an idiot, or 2. This is a test run by the new Rove in town, Mr. Bannon, who has been chomping at the bit to employ his Breitfart disinformation tactics and to send a message in the form of an opening volley.
Or he's just a mule who's following the orders of a less-than-competent KGB colonel, but I would have thought Putin would put one of his better puppetmasters in that role so I'm discounting that one.

I'm no psychiatrist but I actually think trump is delusional. As supporting evidence for this belief I'd cite his inauguration (again) - specifically the photos. On January 24th, 2017, trump tweeted a picture from his personal Twitter account of a photo he says depicts the crowd at his inauguration and will hang in the White House press room. The photo is of the 2009 inauguration of 44th President Barack Obama, and is curiously dated January 21st, 2017, the day AFTER the inauguration and the day of the Women’s March, the largest inauguration related protest in history.

He must *know* this is a lie, yet he still posted it. So I really can't see how anyone could suggest he's playing with a full deck.

There was a twitter thread the other day which presented a line of argument which seems to stricke a chord:

So, here's a thing about Trump and his competence/mental state. I'm gong to list three things that have happened since he was elected.

Thing the first - when asked about his/the GOP's plan on ACA, he said, repeatedly, that the Democrats "own Obamacare" and its failures.

He said that they "should" let it fail and the Democrats would "own it", but they're not going to.

Thing the second - when he visited the CIA, he said outright that he was visiting them first to put to bed the idea of a rift with them.

And thing the third - he described the purpose of sweeping regulatory rollback as being to allow companies to do something "monstrous" fast.

These three things all have one thing in common - saying them in no way helped him, in no way advanced his case or achieved a goal.

So why did he say them? I'll tell you why. It's the other thing they have in common: they are internal talking points. Strategy points.

Donald Trump told us he wanted the weekend off. He had no intention of going to the CIA, or anywhere else. So how did he get there? Like so:

Someone close to him says, "Donald, you need to go talk to the CIA."

"I don't wanna. They're out to get me."

"That's why you have to go."

His advisor (handler) says, "The media's talking about this rift, this rift. You have to go talk to them right away, show there's no rift."

So Donald Trump gets up in front of the CIA and his paid cheering session, and honest to God the only thing he says on topic is that.

He repeats, probably almost word for word, the rationale his advisor told him he had to be there.

He doesn't understand what they actually wanted him to do, which was to get up and praise the CIA and act like there was no rift.

The other cases? Same thing. He's repeating to reporters the verbiage his aides and advisors explain to him why he wants to do things.

It was probably Bannon the nihilist who told him that the regulatory rollback would help companies that want to do monstrous things.

My point here is - Donald Trump was never a complex or nuanced man, but at this point, he's... well, "far gone" is the only way to put it.

It's unfortunate there is so much loaded, ableist rhetoric around both evil and incompetent men, but there is something going on here.

When you read the text of a Trump interview or speech from ten years ao, compared to one today? The degradation is very obvious.

Remember the report that the Russians had prepared all this kompromat on Trump but found they didn't need it? He just does what they say.

And his close aides/associates outright saying he basically does what the last person he talked to (that he trusts) suggests.

I'll put this very bluntly: I don't think Donald Trump understands what the people in his life are telling him to do, even as he does it.

If he were playing poker and Steve Bannon were helping him and Bannon said, "Donald, you're showing an ace but you've got nothing, bluff"...

...Donald would say, "I've got nothing so I'm bluffing." and then get very angry when he doesn't win, because he was told that would work.

There are at least those three times in January alone that he has repeated what was obviously an internal talking point, to reporters.

This is not to say he's entirely a puppet president. I think he's doing two things right now: his own impulses, and what he's talked into.

Both kinds of things are dangerous for different reasons. His unchecked id, unrestrained temperament, could literally get us all killed.

And his tendency to go along with whatever the people he relies on press him into doing puts very dangerous people in powerful positions.

And our supposedly "liberal media" spent ages blandly reporting on "concerns" of Clinton's health that were clearly deflection/projection.

Mark my words, if things continue, he's gonna pull a talking points gaffe like the ones I mentioned during an importantion negotiation.

I've kept waiting for anyone in the media to notice this pattern but no one seems to be picking up on it, among the other weirdness.

I'm sure to Donald it makes a kind of sense, he's always subscribed to the idea that it's all just "moves" in a negotiation anyway.

The idea that you don't tell the person you're buttering up you're there to butter them up, or reveal your scapegoat plans to the public seems to have slipped away from him, though. He's lost what little sense of subtlety he ever had.

A scene I'd bet has happened:
Advisor: Donald, you have to say X, because Y.
Donald: So I say Y.
A: You can't say Y.
D: But I'm president!

And then there's a ten minute argument about why did the advisor tell him Y if he can't say Y, why can't he say Y if Y is true, etc.

And the advisor tries to convince him that he can't say Y because it looks bad, but that turns into Donald wanting to say THAT.

And then they run out of time and the advisor gives up, figuring (mostly correctly!) that it will all be overlooked anyway.

That's how we end up with Trump rambling about the Democrats owning Obamacare if the repeal/replace fails.

That's how we end up with Trump telling the CIA he's visiting them first because of appearances.

That's how we end up with Trump explaining the purpose of the regulation rollback as allowing companies to do monstrous things quickly.

Now, if you think this is worrying, here's the scary part: the people working with him in the White House and the GOP leaders must know this

And their collective reaction to this ongoing and likely spiraling state of affairs is not "This is bad." but "What a golden opportunity!"

Tomorrow, God willing, I will wake up. And I will find Trump's online supporters saying, "How do you know that's what his advisors said?"

And it's true, I have no inside knowledge. It's just conversational algebra. You start from the actual outcome and work backwards.

See, with a few exceptions, people rarely say things that make no sense. You just have to figure out *how* they make sense.

And while it's tempting to dismiss what Trump spews in his rambles as "word salad", a lot of it does make sense from the right perspective.

And I'm telling you, a lot of what he's been doing is repeating fragments of advice he'd get from advisors, things from strategy meetings.

And I have never had a high opinion of him, but I don't believe he would have done that, ten years ago. Make of that what you will.
PDR
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 11:37
  #5399 (permalink)  
 
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I watched a Frontline program titled "President Trump" the other night. I thought it made some interesting claims about President Trump and how his world view was formed. If true, it would appear that facts, alternate facts, and how he wants things to be, become somewhat blurred and he / his advisors will say what they want things to be irrespective of the evidence.

Anyone able to comment on the claims made in this documentary?

thanks
layman
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 12:49
  #5400 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like most any politician.

However....in this case it is the media throwing out absolute lies and calling it the truth in far too many cases and they call factual.

Also remember Trump is a Master at manipulating the Media.

Why don't we change the narrative to analyzing what Trump is accomplishing like gaining the support of major Labor leaders, seeing real job growth, returning to enforcement of Immigration Law, stopping the payment of Two Hundred Million Dollars to the Palestinian Authority, addressing murders in Chicago, and a few other things.

Talk is a way of structuring a deal....in advance!
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