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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 29th Nov 2016, 20:45
  #4461 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
You make two assumptions -- you assume no probably cause and you assume not following standard procedures -- so your case is built on thin air.
No, really I don't. The original assertion was:

"As a Criminal/Counter-Intelligence Investigator....I did not care how or where i got information....so long as it was true, accurate, and verifiable. "

All I was ever pointing out was that a Criminal Investigator actually DOES have to care "how and where" information was obtained. It doesn't actually matter how true, verifiable or accurate some evidence or information is if it was obtained by unlawful means, because it will be inadmissible in court. Even if that piece of information isn't used, but on the basis of that a legal search (or whatever) turns up other information that other information is also inadmissible as fruit of the poisoned vine unless the investigators can show some other probable cause for the search. Because it is the law of the land that even Law Officers can't just invade and search peoples' homes, offices, cars, clothes or even trash cans without having some probable cause for believing crimes had been committed (to put it simply). Go search any american case law database for cases thrown out due to searches being deemed illegal due to lack of probable cause - there are plenty of them.

Now a law-enforcement officer would be very familiar with all this, because it has a huge influence on his day job. So pardon me if I had trouble believing that someone who was apparently unaware of these basic legal constraints was actually a law officer. If my misbelief is at variance with the truth then accept my apologies and allow me to replace my disbelief with disappointment.

PDR
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Old 29th Nov 2016, 21:33
  #4462 (permalink)  
 
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Admissibility in court as evidence in a trial does not mean facts aren't facts--true, verifiable facts. Yes, we, mistakenly I believe, suppress ill-gotten evidence in criminal trials. No, I don't support using torture in criminal investigations, there are other sanctions than letting provably guilty criminals free to offend again. Saying facts aren't facts due to reasonable means used to obtain them is extremism.

GF
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Old 29th Nov 2016, 22:37
  #4463 (permalink)  
 
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GF....whether Evidence is Admissible in Court is up to the Judge and perhaps the Appeals Court later on down the line should a Conviction occur.

As I do not see every post (by choice and use of some PPRuNe tools)....I am wondering how we got from my having said I care not what source or means I get accurate, valid, verifiable information (such as Breitbart in particular or any other media/blog/internet source) to a discussion about Torture.

How did you get off down into that Rabbit Hole?

I really doubt there is a logical and rational process that could cause the conversation to detour from the context of my post like that in just a few posts.
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Old 29th Nov 2016, 23:05
  #4464 (permalink)  
 
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The first (and I believe only, as far as I can see) mention of torture was in GF's post immediately above your's, so it wasn't so much a logical process as a single brainfart out of left field.

PDR
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Old 29th Nov 2016, 23:41
  #4465 (permalink)  
 
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I really doubt there is a logical and rational process that could cause the conversation to detour from the context of my post like that in just a few posts.
Logical ?? is not normally part of JB. Here the thread goes where it goes which is often better than taking up time with new thread titles to interject an off-topic comment
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Old 29th Nov 2016, 23:46
  #4466 (permalink)  
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All I was ever pointing out was that a Criminal Investigator actually DOES have to care "how and where" information was obtained.
Not so. Information and evidence are two very different things, having true, accurate and verifiable information allows the investigator to narrow the field until he can produce evidence.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 11:24
  #4467 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting that the President Elect is going to give up all his business interests whilst he's President.

Isn't there a requirement in US law that says that a President has to do this, anyway, in order to avoid any possible conflict of interest, or any accusation that there might be one?

I know that in the US it seems that business and government representatives can be a lot more cosy than should be the case here (although we seem to have a system where people get away with retaining business interests whilst in power, by the back door). I would have thought that this stopped short of allowing the President to both run the country and run a big business, though.

Happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 11:39
  #4468 (permalink)  
 
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I gather that, unlike here in the UK, whilst it is the normal practice and the expectation in the colonies, it's not actually a legal requirement. At least that's what they were saying on the news a couple of days ago.

PDR
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 12:41
  #4469 (permalink)  
 
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What is totally unusual....is we have a genuinely successful President-Elect who came to us from outside the Political Class.

That the guy is the owner of a conglomerate valued at about a Billion Dollars suggests he knows something about how to conduct business and hire good people to run his operation for him.

I am encouraged that we have a businessman at the helm rather than just another two faced lying politician....as we currently suffer with in BH Obama.

For example....."You can keep your Doctor, Insurance Plan, and your premium costs will go down!".
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 12:50
  #4470 (permalink)  
 
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I am encouraged that we have a businessman at the helm rather than just another two faced lying politician....
OK

but how do you lead the people to accept this leadership?

I'm reminded of the news video of that very young drug company CEO that explained how/why he raised the price of a popular life saving drug to the point where most couldn't stomach it.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 13:09
  #4471 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
What is totally unusual....is we have a genuinely successful President-Elect
Of course the right-wing nutjob fantascists* lost all contact with reality so they actually believe this description. The reality is that Trump is a highly UNsuccessful businessman with a string of bankruptcies, frauds and corporate crime belittering his past. He started life with a hand-out from his papa and for all his claiomed deal-making skill he has only barely managed to do better than the standard loan investment return on that money.

What he DOES do is he spins a good yarn, and the stupid segment of society fall for it, which is a shame. Butr then lies, fraud and corporate crime are very much the trademarks of the rightie nutjobs, aren't they.

PDR

* Just to be sure - I am allowed to say that without being accused of p;laying the man aren't I? It's the same formula he uses to describe normal people
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 13:33
  #4472 (permalink)  
 
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Probably best not to over-emphasise his business prowess...............

Rich he may be, but if he'd just invested his inheritance, sat back and done nothing, he'd probably be richer than he is now. He's lost massive amounts of money, had companies go bankrupt, defaulted on promises and bullied people, the like of which no one here in the UK has experienced since Peter Rachman.

You've elected him, so I hope that he turns over a new leaf and starts to behave as a President should behave, but I absolutely would not start citing his past behaviour as to why he might make a good President, as I think there are so many examples of poor judgement, bullying behaviour, rudeness, bordering on being openly offensive, that any good qualities he may have are likely to be contradicted by all the poor qualities, leading to a pointless tit-for-tat argument.

Best to look forward to how he might change and perhaps do some good, I think, rather than look back.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 13:48
  #4473 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies, I went down the torture rabbit hole only because I think the exclusionary rule should be abandoned and police sanctioned when they, by honest mistake, obtain evidence that now might be excluded. Obviously, torture is out of bounds in criminal procedure as would intentional violations. Frankly, I would end the silliness of "rights" cautions, too. If you are out and about and don't know your rights, you deserve to found guilty by your own admissions.

GF
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 13:49
  #4474 (permalink)  
 
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You should read up on Teddy Roosevelt....it might do you some good.

How many jobs has Trump created and maintains with his business operations?

How many lives are positively affected by having those jobs and medical benefits I am sure his companies provide.

I am sure his businesses pay Sales Tax, Property Tax, Social Security Taxes, Medicare Taxes, and Income Taxes.

There are Vendors that generate Revenue by selling to Trump Businesses...and they too in turn generate Jobs, Revenue, and add to the prosperity of their communities.

You hang onto your Democrat Talking Points....but you have to understand they ignore the reality of what Trump has accomplished by being in the arena...and competing with others in his effort to build and sustain profitable businesses.

Not every business succeeds....that is life....but he has done very well in some really tough sectors of the American....and World Economies.

What have you done?

From a 1913 Speech by Roosevelt.....

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 14:02
  #4475 (permalink)  
 
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GF,

I was a City Cop and a Federal Special Agent.....and I disagree with you about the Rights Warning issue.

The reason we have the Miranda Decision is because of the Police failing to recognize the Rights of a Suspect in the past.

In reality, if One does a proper investigation, there is no real value to interrogating the Suspect except to obtain a Confession or admittance of culpability to add to the Investigative Report as some sort of a nice pretty Red Bow kind of thing.

Getting most perps to waive their Rights is pretty easy.....the smart crook.....knows to keep his mouth tightly shut except for a demand to have an attorney present. Usually, Cops are not dealing with the "smart" crook thus the Rights thing is not so important.

Sanctions against the Police are fine....but at what point has the damage been done and how does one make the victim of Police Misconduct whole again?

I prefer the prevention of harm...both by criminals and the Police.

Also....the application of Miranda is not exactly as you see it on Television.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 14:14
  #4476 (permalink)  
 
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For GF:


FWIW, the detailed treatment of the Miranda decision, by a 5-4 vote of the SCOTUS, is a worthy read.


Extracted from one of the dissenting opinions.

IV
Criticism of the Court's opinion, however, cannot stop with a demonstration that the factual and textual bases for the rule it propounds are, at best, less than compelling. Equally relevant is an assessment of the rule's consequences measured against community values. The Court's duty to assess the consequences of its action is not satisfied by the utterance of the truth that a value of our system of criminal justice is "to respect the inviolability of the human personality" and to require government to produce the evidence against the accused by its own independent labors. Ante at 460. More than the human dignity of the accused is involved; the human personality of others in the society must also be preserved. Thus, the values reflected by the privilege are not the sole desideratum; society's interest in the general security is of equal weight.
The obvious underpinning of the Court's decision is a deep-seated distrust of all confessions. As the Court declares that the accused may not be interrogated without counsel present, absent a waiver of the right to counsel, and as the Court all but admonishes the lawyer to [p538] advise the accused to remain silent, the result adds up to a judicial judgment that evidence from the accused should not be used against him in any way, whether compelled or not. This is the not so subtle overtone of the opinion -- that it is inherently wrong for the police to gather evidence from the accused himself. And this is precisely the nub of this dissent.
It appears that the system has been able to adapt well enough despite the reservations of the dissenting justices.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:41
  #4477 (permalink)  
 
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How many jobs has Trump created
How many (Polish?) illegals were employed by his demolition of the building which was replaced by Chump Tower?

Sure, he "created" those jobs for illegals. Sure, he profited from the semi-slave labour of those suckers. That's what he does. That's how he got richer than he would have otherwise done if he'd simply invested daddy's money in the stock market.

Actually, he'd have been much much richer if he'd put his daddy's money into a blind trust such as a blind bet on the DJ30.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 22:14
  #4478 (permalink)  
 
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Caz, why so bitter? Did the building displace one that you preferred? (As a non fan of Mr Trump's taste in architecture, I can see now one of his buildings going up will annoy people who also do not care for his taste in architecture).
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 23:34
  #4479 (permalink)  
 
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The Rub has always been the opposing interests of the accused and Society.

The Constitution guarantees certain Rights to both.

It is the implementation of those Rights that is the difficult thing to accomplish without harming either.

Kate Steinle's Murder by an Illegal Alien who had been deported from this Country five different times is a very good example of how out of kilter the system has become due to Political Correctness and the refusal of the various Administrations to effectively enforce the Law.

Yet only today, we are being told as a Nation that certain Cities, and some Police Forces are going to refuse to comply with Federal Law when it comes to Illegal Immigrants.

We shall see how the new Administration handles such matters....will it turn the system back towards enforcing existing Laws....and begin to unravel imagined Rights not found in the Constitution that have been created by Judges over the past couple of Decades?
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 02:02
  #4480 (permalink)  
 
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One suspects that San Francisco is in for a big dose of karma.

It could very well wind up being their own fault....



...or San Andreas'
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