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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 8th Apr 2020, 13:55
  #21081 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
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Okj, my favorite thought of the day, as we try to figure out under what criteria selected business in this area are shut down:


There are no “non-essential” businesses. There are, however, boatloads of non-essential politicians.
I found myself nodding my head as I read that.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 14:23
  #21082 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
If you're going to make up listicles of a German view of Trump's "lies", it falls on you to get your information correct.
That's a lie.

Chloroquine is an FDA approved drug. There is no prohibition in the USA for off-label use of a drug, even if it has a "Black box warning". Which it doesn't.
There were a few Democrat governors, however, who issued some sort of restrictive order against its use. How that was to have worked is a mystery, as this is a federally regulated issue.
It is NOT approved for general use, only for 'experimental' use. Trump makes it sound as if it were approved for the general public. At a minimum, this is is a grossly misleading statement to the public.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 14:34
  #21083 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brakes on View Post
It is NOT approved for general use, only for 'experimental' use. Trump makes it sound as if it were approved for the general public. At a minimum, this is is a grossly misleading statement to the public.
I'll present a thought: where is the harm in taking it (whether it is highly useful or only mildly useful)?
Is there a side effect that creates a substantial risk?

While I agree that anyone proposing this as some wonder drug or solution has gotten the cart way ahead of the oxen, is there harm in taking it?
(The old "well it may not help, but it can't hurt" idea at work).
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 14:40
  #21084 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'll present a thought: where is the harm in taking it (whether it is highly useful or only mildly useful)?
Is there a side effect that creates a substantial risk?

While I agree that anyone proposing this as some wonder drug or solution has gotten the cart way ahead of the oxen, but is there harm in taking it?
I guess it could divert this drug away from its primary use, thereby harming those who require it there.

Also, is it an effective use of your tax Dollars? I mean, given all the more important things you could be spending the money on.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 14:58
  #21085 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'll present a thought: where is the harm in taking it (whether it is highly useful or only mildly useful)?
Is there a side effect that creates a substantial risk?

While I agree that anyone proposing this as some wonder drug or solution has gotten the cart way ahead of the oxen, is there harm in taking it?
(The old "well it may not help, but it can't hurt" idea at work).
According to the American Medical Association, the side effects from the drug can be fatal, so the "it can't hurt" bit doesn't hold. A Dr Megan Ranney was interviewed about using hydroxychloroquine and described some potential side effects: "It causes psychiatric symptoms, cardiac problems and a host of other bad side effects.", apparently the cardiac problems can even result in cardiac arrest.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 15:00
  #21086 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Originally Posted by De_flieger View Post
According to the American Medical Association, the side effects from the drug can be fatal, so the "it can't hurt" bit doesn't hold. A Dr Megan Ranney was interviewed about using hydroxychloroquine and described some potential side effects: "It causes psychiatric symptoms, cardiac problems and a host of other bad side effects.", apparently the cardiac problems can even result in cardiac arrest.
Taking 'hydroxychloroquine' 'just for fun' is a bad idea, as everybody who has had to take it will assure you. 'Psychiatric symptoms' is bit understating it...
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 15:06
  #21087 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'll present a thought: where is the harm in taking it (whether it is highly useful or only mildly useful)?
Is there a side effect that creates a substantial risk?

While I agree that anyone proposing this as some wonder drug or solution has gotten the cart way ahead of the oxen, is there harm in taking it?
(The old "well it may not help, but it can't hurt" idea at work).
Didn't you guys lose a life because of that? I don't know the details of the particular death, but it was directly attributed to the all knowing one's assertion that it is an effective cure, from which he partially backtracked.

While I agree with you that any cure is better than nothing at all, we really are not aware of the side effects of the dosage that might be needed for the meds to actually work. Asking a population of 300 million odd people with diverse backgrounds and medical issues to become lab rats for an untested drug for this virus is certainly not worth the risk.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 15:58
  #21088 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
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There are no “non-essential” businesses. There are, however, boatloads of non-essential politicians. #FACT
As a government employee...based in the Washington DC Navy Yard....driving into work in the snow and ice...listening to the radio reminding "All Non-Essential Government Employees" are ordered to remain at home and not come to work....I pondered the question why if they were "non-essential" then why were they on the payroll?

That same thought applies to every level of government....no matter which country we wish to consider.

In business....you do not have the luxury of carrying the burden of non-essential staff.

For all of you that are so upset about the use of Hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for the Coronavirus.....if the side effects are so horrible why do millions take it routinely for Lupus and some other diseases?

That the formal testing of the effectiveness of that particular drug has not been done...there is that argument against the use.

The counter argument is if it seems to be working...and there are no horrible side effects being experienced....then where is the harm?

The argument against that is.....it has not been properly studied (under normal standard procedures).

The argument against that notion is these are not normal times....and perhaps thinking outside the box might just be exactly what is needed if this is in fact a genuine Pandemic as is being said.

We see reports now that the Case Mortality Rate (CMR) is being overstated as EVERY death is chalked up as a Coronavirus Death.

In addition for the United States we have seen the CMR estimate reduced from 800,000 to 200,000 for the Virus Deaths.

Why the changes in the CMR estimate....why the different definitions used for SARS and this Virus?

Lots of questions if you have an inquiring mind and don't drink from the fount of koolaid.

Please do remember the US FDA allows the Off Label use of Medications when authorized by a Medical Professional.

That is the Federal Government acting within its remit....whereas we have County and State Government "banning" such use by Doctors....which is not their Remit or authority under law.....or is it?

Last edited by SASless; 8th Apr 2020 at 16:10.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 16:58
  #21089 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Bernie Sanders 2024.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 18:03
  #21090 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Originally Posted by ThorMos View Post
Taking 'hydroxychloroquine' 'just for fun' is a bad idea, as everybody who has had to take it will assure you. 'Psychiatric symptoms' is bit understating it...

I took it for a couple of weeks after contracting malaria in Upper Egypt about 30 years ago. Arguably the treatment is worse than the disease, as in my case the first wave of symptoms had started to subside by the time I was admitted to hospital (here in the UK) and then treated. Definitely not a drug I'd suggest anyone takes unless they absolutely have to, and even then be prepared for the side effects. The near-constant, blinding headache was far and away the worst side effect, like living with a severe migraine 24/7, for a couple of weeks.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 18:19
  #21091 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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There isn't much I can do to correct the mistaken ideas our foreign contributors have about drug prescribing in the USA. After all, I have only been a licensed physician here for 40+ years.

So....final time: there is no legal impediment to prescribing chloroquine to any patient in the US, even for CV19.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 18:29
  #21092 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
If you're going to make up listicles of a German view of Trump's "lies", it falls on you to get your information correct.
That's a lie.

Chloroquine is an FDA approved drug. There is no prohibition in the USA for off-label use of a drug, even if it has a "Black box warning". Which it doesn't.
There were a few Democrat governors, however, who issued some sort of restrictive order against its use. How that was to have worked is a mystery, as this is a federally regulated issue.
I don't agree with your approved drug statement. Chloroquine is an old '70s FDA approved drug for use in treating malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis and certain immune system deficiencies. It is not approved in the classic sense for COVID-19 treatment. As such, the FDA issued an emergency usage authorization under:

U.S. Code 360bbb-3.Authorization for medical products for use in emergencies
Approval status of product

An authorization under paragraph (1) may authorize an emergency use of a product that
(B) is approved, conditionally approved under section 360ccc of this title, licensed, or cleared under such a provision, but which use is not under such provision an approved, conditionally approved under section 360ccc of this title, licensed, or cleared use of the product (referred to in this section as an “unapproved use of an approved product”).
(C)
The term “product” means a drug, device, or biological product.

In this instance a drug Chloroquine is given a limited emergency approval on a somewhat wider basis to determine if it is effective in minimizing the effects of patients contracting and suffering from the COVID-19 virus. There have only been small studies to look at the usefulness of Chloroquine in the current pandemic with varying conclusions.

As always feel free to correct my conclusion regarding the approved drug status...
P.S. I am not a doctor, but I can find medical information and what laws state. The "Emergency" route was taken to expedite potential classic approval if warranted...
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 18:40
  #21093 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
There isn't much I can do to correct the mistaken ideas our foreign contributors have about drug prescribing in the USA. After all, I have only been a licensed physician here for 40+ years.

So....final time: there is no legal impediment to prescribing chloroquine to any patient in the US, even for CV19.
no legal one, no, moral?
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 18:47
  #21094 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Seems djt has some nigerian blood on his hands

https://www.livescience.com/coronavi...kills-man.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...p-praised-drug
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 19:07
  #21095 (permalink)  
 
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Let me put it in terms that even a pilot can understand, Turbine: I'm not going to look up the actual FAR, but I'll paraphrase it: "A pilot in command can deviate from any of the regulations if in his opinion it is necessary to safely conduct the flight". You all know that. After daid deviation who does he answer to? Well it depends on whether that deviation was successful or not.

In US medicine, it is not the licensing or regulatory agencies that prevent "unapproved" drug usage (narcotics are the exception) -- it's the responsibility to defend oneself in an adverse outcome. In today's environment that would not be difficult.

How they handle this stuff in Germany, etc., is irrelevant.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 20:13
  #21096 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
There isn't much I can do to correct the mistaken ideas our foreign contributors have about drug prescribing in the USA. After all, I have only been a licensed physician here for 40+ years.

So....final time: there is no legal impediment to prescribing chloroquine to any patient in the US, even for CV19.
I think most people understand off-label use off drugs, it's routine all over the world. Usually though where a drug has been shown over some time in numerous research papers to be effective against a certain condition, but a drug company just hasn't bothered putting it through the necessary process for it to be officially licensed for a particular use. Often where there is no chance of a patent so it's not worth getting it licensed. For example not all the SSRIs are licensed for the same conditions, although practically they are used fairly interchangeably depending on patient's response.

The issue isn't whether it is 'approved', it's whether it is used before the risk:benefit ratio has been established. Given that one of the major side effects is cardiac arrest, and most of the people liable to receive it would be elderly and a high proportion with existing cardiac problems, it's use should certainly be considered more carefully than the liar in chief is suggesting. I note you don't like people here who aren't doctors advising on drugs, what do you think about the President, also not a doctor, making incorrect and misleading claims about a drug? I assume you would be consistent and wouldn't want politicians pressuring doctors to give drugs liberally that may cause harm where benefit hasn't been established?

I see he is now trying to throw the WHO under the bus with his talk of withholding funding because they 'called it wrong'. The sheer gall of the man, given everything he said about this virus even as we know he was being advised of its risk and did nothing, is sickening. Of course the more gullible will lap it up, mission accomplished.

I would be genuinely interested in any opinions on why the USA has become the worst hit country in the world, considering the President assured us it was completely prepared and the virus presented no risk? Just bad luck I guess.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 21:00
  #21097 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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For dead pan / de flieger/ThorMos.
Thanks. That's why I asked.
Originally Posted by FalseGS
Didn't you guys lose a life because of that?
1. I have no idea.
2. There are about 330 million of us, and in Texas we already have a few hundred dead from car accidents alone this year.
3. A friend of mine's wife died from eating lettuce that had some additive on it back in the 80's. (He sued, won, and that allowed him to leave the Navy).
4. My Dad damn near died in the late 60's due to a nasty reaction to an antibiotic that hospitalized him. (I kid you not, it was penicillin) .
But he didn't die, it almost killed him.
He's still alive, be 92 in May if the Corona Demon doesn't get him.

In other word's, one-off toxic effects of a drug isn't what I was asking about.
Your point on "don't throw it out there when testing hasn't shown a reason to" is agreed, as with the other responders.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 21:03
  #21098 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Let me put it in terms that even a pilot can understand, Turbine: I'm not going to look up the actual FAR, but I'll paraphrase it: "A pilot in command can deviate from any of the regulations if in his opinion it is necessary to safely conduct the flight". You all know that. After daid deviation who does he answer to? Well it depends on whether that deviation was successful or not.

In US medicine, it is not the licensing or regulatory agencies that prevent "unapproved" drug usage (narcotics are the exception) -- it's the responsibility to defend oneself in an adverse outcome. In today's environment that would not be difficult.

How they handle this stuff in Germany, etc., is irrelevant.
Thanks, obgraham, I accept your explanation.

TD
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 21:20
  #21099 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Neila83:
I would be genuinely interested in any opinions on why the USA has become the worst hit country in the world, considering the President assured us it was completely prepared and the virus presented no risk? Just bad luck I guess.
What complete horsepucky you are posting! Did you fail at Maths?
As of 10 minutes ago:
US Coronavirus deaths = 14,262. US Population = 327 million
UK Coronavirus deaths = 7,097. UK Population = 67 million

Get your own house in order before you start spouting rubbish about ours!
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 21:34
  #21100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Neila83:What complete horsepucky you are posting! Did you fail at Maths?
As of 10 minutes ago:
US Coronavirus deaths = 14,262. US Population = 327 million
UK Coronavirus deaths = 7,097. UK Population = 67 million

Get your own house in order before you start spouting rubbish about ours!
OB it pains me to say it, but you ain’t home yet. Nor is the UK. Sadly, both countries are in for a rout and no amount of national pride, finger pointing or patriotism will make a difference.
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