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Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

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Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

Old 3rd Jan 2015, 22:50
  #441 (permalink)  
 
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Presumably his time in the Hitler Youth gave him some preparation for the role.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 22:51
  #442 (permalink)  
 
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I think he made out OK and has been a net asset to the world.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 23:01
  #443 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for a refreshing and honest post 421.

Originally Posted by '421dog"
I say the creeds with honesty, but I have to also admit that the resurrection and assumptions, especially are matters of personal faith rather than logic.
I can say I disagree with your views and I can go on to explain why I struggle to share those views. However I respect you have the right to choose faith over logic and moreover the fact you have taken that conscious decision I admire. What I really struggle with is the denial of the logic.

Originally Posted by '421dog"
I have no doubt that God exists, in whatever primitive, ephemeral form I am capable of conceiving of Him, but I am happy to be a part of the ongoing myth (remembering that just because something is a myth doesn't mean it's not true).
Fascinating! How you can not doubt God's existence despite the lack of evidence is fascinating. Do you consider it may be down to your desire for Him to exist being significantly greater than those who don't believe?

Originally Posted by '421dog"
I would not trade my participation in the ongoing cyclic story for anything.
What I find interesting about that statement is that since God's existence cannot be disproved you are not open to having a change of mind, whereas since the existence of God may be proved I am open to having my mind changed.

Originally Posted by '421dog"
The more I experience the wonders of the world, and particularly the intricacies of medical science, the more I am convinced that there's a lot more going on.
We are polar opposites on this one. The more I experience the wonders of the world and the more I think about there being no other reason or purpose than because we are (IMO), the more wondrous it is and in awe I become. For me, that we are here by chance rather than creation is much more exciting.


Originally Posted by obgraham
And then, the scientist-as-the-answer explanation followed: "Well science doesn't know everything yet, but someday it will, and that'll explain everything". Well, that, indeed is also only an opinion.
OBG, where are these views coming from? Science does not know everything, are there scientists who believe they eventually will? Scientists certainly do not hold that opinion, can you say who does? Incidentally scientists would happily prove the existence of God if they could. Why do you view it as science versus religion?

Originally Posted by obgraham
The never-ending search for the final truth can just as easily be replaced by a simple concept of "Faith". That in fact is what separates religious from nonreligious.
Indeed it could. Would that not be living a lie, selling ourselves short, kidding ourselves and denying the actual truth, which may of course turn out to be there is a creator?

Originally Posted by obgraham
Even Hawking famously once said that to accept the Big Bang Theory and then ask "but what went before it" would be trying to explore the mind of God.
He has a sense of humour. Do you follow science? One of the mainstream theories at the moment is that there was nothing before the big bang, no space, no time, no anything. Don't you think that is more fascinating than a creator?

Originally Posted by obgraham
People of Faith do not require a scientific explanation to everything. It's the whole point.
I'm going to struggle not to sound condescending with this one, but............to use that as a reason for faith seems very much like a cop out. Might work for some but it's not generally what drives the species.


I have another question for believers, if I may?

I don't understand the total conviction and belief in the existence of God and total dismissal of the position of unbelievers, I accept there are people with these beliefs.

When contemplating other religions do believers consider the real religion, the real God may not be their own? Is it palatable to consider another God exists, but not the one you have worshipped for however long? Or do other religions effectively stand alongside unbelievers?
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 23:25
  #444 (permalink)  
 
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Fascinating! How you can not doubt God's existence despite the lack of evidence is fascinating. Do you consider it may be down to your desire for Him to exist being significantly greater than those who don't believe?


I suspect that, regardless of doctrine, or indeed, even deity, you will find that people who believe in one way or another have personally incontrovertable proof of God's existence.

It's something that many of us see everywhere, in the ephemeral beauty and in the most abject ugliness of the universe.

I'm not very good at The Great Commission, or I'd be trying to convert people.

My only point in this thread is that, regardless of my, or anyone else's beliefs, I think that embracing the tenants of Christianity, regardless of one's motivation for doing so, seems to have a salutatory effect on society at large.

I'm far from a "Holy Roller", and doubt seriously that I'd be much good as a proselytizer.



Now, I've got to toddle off to work for the next 16 hrs or so and keep the crushed, torn asunder and variously perforated around to, at worst, get repeatedly damaged, or, hopefully, to make the world a better place than the rest of us have managed so far.


Pax Vobiscum
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 23:45
  #445 (permalink)  
 
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... et cum spiritu tuo
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 00:00
  #446 (permalink)  
 
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OBG, where are these views coming from? Science does not know everything,
BabyBear I was simply paraphrasing you, who previously said:
Throughout history the unexplained and previously attributed to Devine intervention has time and time again been subsequently explained by science.
I thought we were making some progress on this discussion. I've explained my answer to your question, but you only want to hear an answer on your terms of reference, and what I'm presenting is that others view these basic matters from a different perspective.

I'm quite tolerant of those of you who feel the way you do -- never once have I suggested you should adopt my views. But that tolerance for others (the very heart of The Enlightenment which you quickly cite) does not appear often in the views of the atheistic.

I might add another issue from the American viewpoint: we are often chided by others for the degree to which religion penetrates American life. I submit that religion is at the center of American culture. That's not all good, for sure, but the last 200 years of history shows that when religion was suppressed, totalitarianism arose in its absence, with genocidal rates of an order of magnitude higher. There is no reason why that should not repeat itself.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 00:05
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You've got that the wrong way round. Totalitarianism arose and then, in some cases, suppressed religion. In others, of course, religion was happy to encourage or participate in totalitarianism.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 00:21
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Who (or what) created God?
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 00:38
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obgraham, how do you read my statement of fact:

Throughout history the unexplained and previously attributed to Devine intervention has time and time again been subsequently explained by science.
as a claim that science knows everything, or ever will know everything?

To be honest I think I am giving reasonable background to why and how I reach my conclusions. I'm certainly trying to. For sure I'll fail you if you expect me to anticipate you may interpret my above statement as a claim science has all the answers. You appear to see science as the enemy, out to prove God does not exist. To be blunt; most scientists (even the believers) do not consider God when they go to work, God does not enter their minds, they have no interest in proving God does not exist.

As I said; my above statement is one of fact, scientists did not set out to prove the absence of Divine intervention, that was merely a consequence of science discovering the truth, a by-product.

I get the impression you totally misunderstand what science is?

Don't you think the believers arguments are distinctly lacking in statement of fact? Can you direct me to any?
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 00:53
  #450 (permalink)  
 
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421dog, I must have missed this.

Of course, the starter was just hot, the battery terminals were just dirty, or something else tangible was going on. I know that temporally, but I know just as well that the faith that Kris, the girl with me who went on to a different vocation, was absolute, and that the damned thing started without a problem.
That you acknowledge the explanation yet go on to link it to Divine intervention leaves the impression that, although you know it is not Divine intervention, you want it to be. Which leads back to my question: Is your belief a consequence of your greater desire for it to be so?

I suggest it looks that way.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 01:18
  #451 (permalink)  
 
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BabyBear,

I get the impression you totally misunderstand what science is?
I guess 9 years of science eddicashun and 2 degrees didn't provide me with all the answers to life's questions.

Not once have I suggested science is the enemy of religion. The pillars of science were mostly religious people, and science as a field of study began under the church. You can spin reality whatever way you wish, but my science background competes very well with others.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 01:39
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Your claim that science as a field of study began under the church would come as a bit of a surprise to the ancient Greeks and the Chinese, among others.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 10:01
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From Wikipedia:

Galileo's championing of heliocentrism was controversial within his lifetime, a time when most subscribed to either geocentrism or the Tychonic system. He met with opposition from astronomers, who doubted heliocentrism due to the absence of an observed stellar parallax. The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was false and contrary to scripture, placing works advocating the Copernican system on the index of banned books and forbidding Galileo from advocating heliocentrism. Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII, thus alienating not only the Pope but also the Jesuits, both of whom had supported Galileo up until this point. He was tried by the Holy Office, then found "vehemently suspect of heresy", was forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 10:14
  #454 (permalink)  
 
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Who (or what) created God?
From A Catechism of Christian Doctrine (pub 1952, price sevenpence)

"Had God any beginning?

God had no beginning: He aways was, He is and he always will be"

All perfectly simple
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 11:05
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God had no beginning: He aways was, He is and he always will be
You don't need to invent that level of indirection, though. You could simply say the same about the universe (leaving out the time stuff, as we currently believe that to be wrong anyway) - "it just is".
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 11:12
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Of course, Galileo was eventually pardoned. In 1998!

Quote,
"I think that embracing the tenants of Christianity, regardless of one's motivation for doing so, seems to have a salutatory effect on society at large."

This can only be true if one dismisses significant portions of the scriptures. That kind of negates the whole argument FOR religion.
You can't take a document which by its own assertion is the eternal truth and pick and choose what is correct and what is not or claim that we didn't know any better back then.

Like Galileo, education, rights of women, slavery, equality, etc, religion has to be dragged, kicking and screaming forward to embrace the ethics and morals of the civil society.

PS. I wish I knew how to quote properly.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 12:01
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I had presumed 421dog's engine eventually started because the flooded fuel evaporated, or for one of the many entirely likely reasons he gives. I didn't bother answering his response because of that.

Why, given that situation, he should still think divine intervention had anything to do with it I really don't know.

I have an elderly relative in the early stages of dementia. She frequently phones up to say someone has been in her house in her absence and stolen stuff. Of course, what has happened is she has forgotten where she put stuff, and the 'stolen' goods (usually arcane things like a tea towel) always turn up (in the washing machine, in the case of the towel).

But when she phones, it is futile to point out what has happened before, and the object has not been stolen but merely misplaced. She immediately jumps to the least likely reason for the object not being where she expects it to be, rather than the obvious but mundane one. To her, she HAS been a victim of crime, and she cannot be convinced that that is almost certainly not the case.

Is it co-incidental that she has always been devoutly religious? I'm not implying that religious people are in any way suffering dementia, but dementia does allow underlying personality traits to take over, in her case being more powerful than rational thought.

I may be way off here, but 421's and others on here relating of events of possible divine intervention and reasons to believe in the supernatural when entirely mundane explanations exist reminds me so much of her situation.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 12:14
  #458 (permalink)  
 
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@Miserlou



You can of course paste copied text between the brackets. Hope this helps.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 13:52
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@Miserlou
Thanks, Discorde.
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Old 4th Jan 2015, 14:15
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I may be way off here, but 421's and others on here relating of events of possible divine intervention and reasons to believe in the supernatural when entirely mundane explanations exist reminds me so much of her situation.
Of course you're way off base.

I merely related (and, if you were being fair), self-impeached, an interesting story.

My wonder wasn't so much that the plane actually started, but rather at the fact that the girl who was with me, who had no experience of old Bonanzas or even aircraft in general, told me preemptively what was going to happen, and had absolute faith, for whatever reason, that the deal was done.

As I said, there's no doubt a perfectly scientific explanation.

Nothing to see here, move along citizen.
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