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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:25
  #841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Is this your idea of reasonableness, mixture?
No.

The "pro-gun nuts" are those people who cannot see the wood for the trees and come up with the most ludicrously stupid attempts at comparisons or counter-arguments.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to the point of view those who wish to own guns as long as they put forward rational statements.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:29
  #842 (permalink)  
 
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BOING,

Seriously ?

You say

One of you, any one of you, you bleating sheep, could suggest a practical legal way to control gun violence in the US.
A few suggestions are provided, and then you say.....

I am not interested in solutions that have worked in other countries
and
Your vaunted suggestions are totally pointless and a waste of time
If you're not willing to listen to reasonable suggestions, then why ask for them in the first place ?

What miracle can you perform to save us?
Quite frankly, it seems nobody can save the Americans from themselves.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:31
  #843 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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I'm perfectly willing to listen to the point of view those who wish to own
guns as long as they put forward rational statements.
However many pages here call you a liar.

I can posses firearms simply because I exist as an American citizen with no felony convictions.

The government cannot decide for me that I may not posses them without me taking some sort of illegal action to make me a felon.

There is no 'argument' to that statement of fact.

You may not like the fact, but it exists nonetheless.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:35
  #844 (permalink)  
 
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The government cannot decide for me that I may not posses them without me taking some sort of illegal action to make me a felon.
And there we have the crux of the issue.

You're one of those people who considers the second amendment to be set in stone, never to be touched. A document written how many hundreds of years ago in a completely different socio-economic era and different political landscape.

The USA's refusal to even take de-minimis common-sense actions such as mandatory licensing and training is what shocks the rest of the world (well, that, and the fact you lot are prepared to sit back and accept all the slaughters that occur at your educational establishments as a price worth paying for leaving the second amendment untouched).
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:38
  #845 (permalink)  
 
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It is a great tragedy that the American colonists choose to severe their relationship with the Crown of England by means of insurrection and violence instead of working through the process as done in Canada, Australia and NZ.

Furthermore, the descendants of those American colonists have been left with a legacy of such fear and insecurity that they feel they must be forever armed and ready to stand against their own chosen government regardless of the cost even the lives of children and others among the most vulnerable of their society..
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:42
  #846 (permalink)  
 
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In 2010 there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms. But, that figure is small compared to accidental shooting deaths which brings the annual total to more than 30,000
wait a minute, where the fk did that number come from? 20,000 accidental shootings in one year?

Unintentional Deaths and Injuries
In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people
Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence ? Gun Law Information Experts

Perhaps you are including suicide with accidental shooting?
Suicide
Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:48
  #847 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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While we worry about the children, John, we worry a lot more about your ilk.

We're happy being nice to each other around here.

People with legally owned firearms tend to remarkably polite. Much more so than those who would still have them should they be outlawed.

I've also noticed that there isn't anyone around here who feels it necessary to eat grass, unlike in your preferred haunt north of the 38th parallel.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:50
  #848 (permalink)  
 
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My American Son-in Law has guns. A 9mm pistol and a repeater shotgun. He's a former USMC officer. To him having a gun is no different to having a car, a house, a TV, food on the table etc.
It just goes with the territory.
That's the mind state that we Europeans can't and probably never will, understand.
By the way, although he's a former (never say ex) USM he's a perfect gentlemen.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:54
  #849 (permalink)  
 
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You're one of those people who considers the second amendment to be set in stone, never to be touched. A document written how many hundreds of years ago in a completely different socio-economic era and different political landscape.
As has been explained patiently over and over and over, there is a perfectly functional method contained within our system of government for changing the Constitution.

As we started out with 10 Amendments and are up to 29(?) at present, we have demonstrated to ourselves that the process works.

Yet no serious challenge to the Second Amendment has ever been mounted.

Apparently, we don't want to change it. What you want is meaningless.

The USA's refusal to even take de-minimis common-sense actions such as mandatory licensing and training is what shocks the rest of the world (well, that, and the act you lot are prepared to sit back and accept all the slaughters that occur at your educational establishments as a price worth paying for leaving the second amendment untouched).
Yep. Savage and exceptional, that's us. What the world, who collectively have been able to accomplish...er...well, let's move on...

"Common-sense actions" to you might not be to me.

"Common sense" regarding other inconvenient protections contained within the U.S. Constitution means fighting to uphold its supremacy versus that of any political party or man.

If I agree to negotiate away a part that you don't like, what prevents someone else from negotiating away a part you do? "You" in this case means liberal Americans, not irrelevant foreigners.

Mr. Limosine Liberal doesn't want me to have a gun. I don't think he should have a right from illegal "search and seizure." (Note, for illustrating a point, not my personal belief)

Is he right and I'm wrong because he dislikes something I don't?

Bray all you want, but we're keeping our Constitution. We will change it, or not, as we deem necessary.

Not you. Never you. We just aren't that into you.

As the dearth of replies on the UK gun thread shows, no one really cares what you do.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 17:58
  #850 (permalink)  
 
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Seldom

Mate, your Queens in play.

Publication Firearm Violence, 1993-2011

Michael Planty, Ph.D., Jennifer L. Truman, Ph.D.

May 7, 2013 NCJ 241730

Presents trends on the number and rate of fatal and nonfatal firearm violence from 1993 to 2011. The report examines incident and victim demographic characteristics of firearm violence, including the type of firearm used; victim's race, age, and sex; and incident location. The report also examines changes over time in the percentages of nonfatal firearm crimes by injury, reporting to the police, and the use of firearms in self-defense. Information on homicide was obtained primarily from the Centers for Disease Control's (CDC) National Vital Statistics System. Nonfatal firearm violence data are from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which collects information on nonfatal crimes reported and not reported to the police against persons age 12 or older from a nationally representative sample of U.S. households.

Highlights:

Firearm-related homicides declined 39%, from 18,253 in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011.
Nonfatal firearm crimes declined 69%, from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 victimizations in 2011.
.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:02
  #851 (permalink)  
 
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Yet no serious challenge to the Second Amendment has ever been mounted.
Perhaps that's because the pro-gun nut lobby lead by the NRA marches up Capitol Hill and twists the politicians arms any time it hears an inkling that someone might be contemplating doing something about guns.

Don't try to pretend it doesn't happen, we know US politics heavily influenced by lobbyists and their money (afterall, who gets the master bedroom at the Whitehouse is pretty much a factor of who has spent the most money on their election campaign).

US politicians need to grow some nuts, stick one finger up at the pro-gun lobbyists and do what they are supposed to as legislators !
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:02
  #852 (permalink)  
 
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Mixture.
Come on, you are smarter than that so you must be fighting a desperate retreat.
The reason I am not interested in solutions that worked in other countries is that their laws are different to US laws - I made that clear.

Your vaunted suggestions are totally pointless and a waste of time unless they address the specific US conditions.
Now, stop relying on pathetic smoke screens and answer the question.

Give us an answer that would work in the US not Middle-Plonkovania.

The USA's refusal to even take de-minimis common-sense actions such as mandatory licensing and training is what shocks the rest of the world (well, that, and the fact you lot are prepared to sit back and accept all the slaughters that occur at your educational establishments as a price worth paying for leaving the second amendment untouched).
Another pearl. This problem has been wrestled with in the US since the 1930s. The recent, very recent, change is that the problem of guns in crime has been overshadowed by guns in school and guns in criminal gangs. The fact that no magical solution to the reduction in gun violence is due to the size of the problem not lack of effort. Recently Bloomberg gave 3.4 million dollars to gun control efforts, an amount that would hurt some countries budget. Stop making stupid comments about the US not trying to solve the problem.


.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:05
  #853 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BOING View Post
Seldom

Mate, your Queens in play.

You really want to do the stats thing?


Gun Crime


Wont make pleasant reading mate, trust me.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:06
  #854 (permalink)  
 
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The reason I am not interested in solutions that worked in other countries is that their laws are different to US laws
Right .... so now you're saying your lawmakers are so dumb they are unable to draft new pieces of legislation from scratch ?

They seem to have managed to introduce all sorts of legislation post-911 without too much difficulty, so why have they suddenly lost their ability to draft legislation when it comes to guns ?
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:08
  #855 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 421dog
While we worry about the children, John, we worry a lot more about your ilk.
Paranoia is a serious condition.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:14
  #856 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by brickhistory View Post
However many pages here call you a liar.

I can posses firearms simply because I exist as an American citizen with no felony convictions.

The government cannot decide for me that I may not posses them without me taking some sort of illegal action to make me a felon.

There is no 'argument' to that statement of fact.

You may not like the fact, but it exists nonetheless.

That's not strictly true though is it.......


Who Cannot Have a Gun in America? - U.S. Government Info/Resources
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:16
  #857 (permalink)  
 
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Seldom you checked those accidental shooting figures yet?
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:17
  #858 (permalink)  
 
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There is a very obvious link between gun availability and gun homicide, particularly HAND guns.

These are some of the most widely recognized studies conducted. All concluded the same thing.

Harvard school of public health:

“Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.”

Boston University (most in depth study of gun homicide conducted)

Harvard Injury Control Research Center:

"The evidence is very compelling. There are more gun murder in areas with more guns, and more murder overall”

Journal of the American Medical Association:

“Conclusions and Relevance A higher number of firearm laws in a state are associated with a lower rate of firearm fatalities in the state.”

American Psychological Association

New England Journal of Medicine

“The study found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide.”

The saddest thing about the gun debate in America is that very few people are aware of the Dickey Amendment that prohibits federal funding of any study that concludes that gun control would be effective.
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:18
  #859 (permalink)  
PTT
 
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BOING
What a joke. Is that why the driver abandoned the car and made a run for it? Since this was LA it is probably an illegal alien with no drivers license.
Sigh. Yes, we know some people are criminals. We know this. But the fact that there are restrictions on who can and cannot legally have access to cars means that there is a hurdle in the way of the "mowing down innocents" scenario. The more hurdles the less chance of it happening, but there will always be incidents. That doesn't mean that the number of incidents has to stay the same.
OK PTT you are coopted. What action, specifically, would you take if you could impose legislation on the US? Let us have a practical solution that could actually be turned into law.
Several options spring to mind, including:
Making training mandatory at State level would appear to be palatable for some here. Make federal funding on certain items require a State-wide training system. No need to register the guns, just have state law mandate that ownership requires the training be passed.
Provision of state-run armouries in towns would help make it harder for people to get at weapons, as would a law requiring a minimum level of security for a firearm.
All of this could be paid for by placing large tax burdens on firearms or on ammunition. Sure, you can make your own of both, but it's another hurdle between the Lanzas of this world and another Sandy Hook.

No, it's not perfect. No system short of banning guns will be. But it will very likely be better in terms of preventing gun deaths.
After all I do understand by your use of "we" in the post you feel that you have the right to intervene in American society.
Don't be an arse, the comment was in the general context rather than specifically talking about the US. Read the comment again.

brickhistory
Interesting to note that not one of the Don Quixote High Horse Brigade (Light) directly answered by query regarding government-mandated CCTV in their personal homes to help combat child abuse.
I certainly did. The premise of your proposal is flawed: if the state authorities knew about the issue then what help will telling the state authorities be?
But no simple 'yes' or 'no' to the question of "would you give up more of your personal liberty if it saved one child from abuse?"
False dilemma. Try a yes or no answer to this one: have you stopped beating your wife yet?
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Old 2nd Nov 2014, 18:25
  #860 (permalink)  
 
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That's not strictly true though is it.......
It is absolutely, unequivacably true.

I own multiple firearms.

I have asked no government agency's nor person's permission to do so.

I require no government agency's continued forbearance for me to continue possessing said firearms unless I take such actions that make me a convicted threat to society.

if the state authorities knew about the issue then what help will telling the state authorities be?
Ironic, innit?


goudie, please thank your SIL for his service and responsible (at his choice) gun ownership.
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